From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: emacs mode line suggestions Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:55:15 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c94929$15f7add0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <15962952-6180-41bd-abce-1b919aa55807@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com><87y6ziu4rm.fsf@gmail.com><000c01c948e5$c6189420$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1226976957 26692 80.91.229.12 (18 Nov 2008 02:55:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:55:57 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Richard Riley'" , Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 18 03:56:59 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1L2Glt-0003B9-24 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:56:57 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60120 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L2Gkk-0005JS-Es for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:55:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L2GkR-0005Id-CN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:55:27 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L2GkP-0005HF-Io for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:55:26 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=35096 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L2GkP-0005H9-DM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:55:25 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]:37802) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2GkP-0000ed-6x for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:55:25 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAI2t9bZ024237 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:55:10 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt704.oracle.com (acsmt704.oracle.com [141.146.40.82]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAI2tWr0009370; Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:55:33 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.23.165.218) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:55:17 +0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AclJHqhnRdAQR9etQlSrYVnS6RQbYwAAZPUw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt704.oracle.com [141.146.40.82] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A09020A.49222E97.00B5:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59888 Archived-At: > the bottom line really is "this is how it is" not "how it maybe > should be if all groups were used properly". The development > list/group does not feature lots of new users whose input IS > important when discussing such issues. It's not about proper use. It's about being effective to get what you want. To change Emacs (the release), one needs to deal with emacs-devel, like it or not. That's the "this-is-how-it-is" reality. > The help group does feature these users. These new users do not and > generally will not subscribe to the development list since they do > not realise they are in fact contributing to "development" when > expressing their confusion about certain emacs idiosyncrasies. Too bad, for everyone. But _you_ realize they are in fact contributing to development, so why don't you suggest moving such a thread to where you now apparently agree it belongs? Especially if that's the only thing keeping them away ("_since_ they do not realize"). You seem to be arguing that since those other, new guys don't know any better, don't know that such a discussion is in fact about Emacs development and logically belongs in emacs-devel, the discussion should just be carried on here instead. I'm arguing that if they don't know any better then we should help by guiding them to the fertile ground, the place where the discussion is most likely to bear fruit. > Should new development be discussed in the devel group? Of course. Then what's the argument? That's just what I'm saying. Let's encourage that to happen, since you agree. > Does that preclude certain things being discussed in the > context of help threads here in the help group? Certainly not. Preclude? No. But will a discussion only here change Emacs? Not likely. Is your aim to convince new users that you have a great idea or to change Emacs to reflect your great idea? That's the question. Please think about it. My point is not that you must not post such discussions here. It is that there is not much point in doing so - _if_ your intention is to change Emacs. "Philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." ;-) I've qualified by adding that conditional, "if", several times now, with no correction from you. And I've asked, if that is not the intention, then what is? Again no response. I conclude that that is in fact the intention of having such a discussion here: to change Emacs. I think, in that case, that it is misguided. Those who will ultimately change Emacs in the ways you want (or not) are in emacs-devel. "This is how it is." To fulfill your goal, you will need to take your case to them sooner or later. Bring as many newbies as you like - that can only help the discussion, not hurt it, but bring the discussion to the place where the Emacs release is actually changed. That ain't here, any way you look at it. My aim is to help you bring such discussion in contact with the Emacs developers and deciders - not to exclude it from here. If you want people here to be aware of it, then a link here, even a periodic link, to a discussion at emacs-devel could be appropriate. I want to encourage you to add the discussion to emacs-devel; that's all. I really don't care much whether it is also here, but I respect that you do. It's not good to simply copy both lists, of course, but an occasional informative link here could help newcomers tune in. The question I think is, do you really want to change Emacs or not?