From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Release plans Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:47:41 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c8fc9b$234b7fa0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <21576055.881601218543663926.JavaMail.www@wwinf4605> <873alamgvm.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1218559811 16745 80.91.229.12 (12 Aug 2008 16:50:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:50:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Miles Bader'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 12 18:51:01 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KSx56-0007AS-8M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:50:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42817 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KSx4A-00025J-CL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:49:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KSx3z-0001y5-6J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:49:39 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KSx3x-0001w8-Lo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:49:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54955 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KSx3x-0001vs-EC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:49:37 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]:13412) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KSx3r-0006TY-KU; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:49:32 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw1.us.oracle.com (agmgw1.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.212]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m7CGnBX8028504; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:49:12 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by agmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m7BFCXVL029101; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:49:10 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 11434249801218559647; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:47:27 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.86.2) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:47:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <873alamgvm.fsf@catnip.gol.com> Thread-Index: Acj8jE2+ACRSlzGERmG6QpF/uVNkRAAAeBdA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:102349 Archived-At: > They do of course exist though. The two classes that seem to > be common are: > > 1) People that got used to emacs in another OS (in my experience > usually old unix systems, e.g. sunos/solaris), and > continue to use it in windows. I suppose this number is > dwindling. > > 2) People that are influenced in some way by an emacs user. E.g., > windows-using spouse/friend/... of emacs user. There is another large class, and it is not dwindling much at the moment. More and more, I see developers using a Windows laptop or desktop machine to access a GNU/Linux machine remotely (e.g. through VNC), the latter machine often being a VM. This might be true only of large organizations that produce software (companies, government,...), but I suspect that it is more general than that and becoming more so. It is certainly true of Oracle, as one example. Where I work: The developers use Windows on their desktop/laptop (today) because that is what everyone in the organization uses. They use the same tools as everyone else (non-developers) for interacting and getting the organization's work done together. And yes, this is a non-negligible part of what they do. Even a developer's computer time is not all spent on development - far from it. This includes all of the work that is not necessarily software development per se. And it includes even much of the software development work in the larger sense: project management, specs, product management, and so on. That work is done using Windows desktop boxes for the most part, even if, under the covers, the (typically Web) Windows clients interact with databases and other tools that run on GNU/Linux. Software development in the stricter sense of coding, testing, version control, and so on, is done on the remote GNU/Linux boxes. Yes, to the extent that they can use Web clients for this work (and they can, more and more), they could use only their GNU/Linux boxes for that, even if that involves another layer of indirection (e.g. VNC). But they typically don't. Perhaps this also has to do with less support on GNU for the office tools they use to get this work done. Or perhaps it's just ignorance, or perhaps it's bandwidth slowdown (e.g. VNC). I don't know. And perhaps this will change. But today that work is done through Windows. In sum, the developers use their remote and often virtual GNU/Linux machines for software development, but they use Windows for everything else. Emacs? Many use Emacs for their development on GNU/Linux. Many others use some flavor of vi for that, and some use both Emacs and vi. What editor do they use on Windows? My guess is that many use the same editor they use on GNU, but I know that some use things like TextPad or even NotePad on Windows. I believe that some who use Emacs all day long on GNU do not even know that they can also use it on Windows. Those who do know take advantage of this and presumably spread the word. Some who use Emacs on both platforms take advantage of Tramp to access files on their GNU/Linux machines from an Emacs session running on Windows. That is, if they happen to be working on Windows in Emacs, they also do some of their work on GNU directly from the same Emacs session, rather than pulling up VNC or otherwise accessing the remote GNU machine. In general, they take advantage of the fact that Emacs runs everywhere, acts the same everywhere, and can access remote files from anywhere. The combinations are several, and I am sure that they are all used. Because it runs on multiple platforms and allows remote use of different platforms to some extent, Emacs is in some technical (not political) sense above and outside any choice of OS. So yes, it is very useful to many _users_ of GNU that Emacs continue to run on Windows. Whether that is important and useful to FSF is for FSF to decide. It's obvious to me that Emacs on Windows benefits GNU/FSF greatly, but I won't try further to convince anyone of that. I would guess that there has been a gradual shift in development in many software organizations to using GNU/Linux more and using Windows less, and this is true for more than just the developers. It is a slow movement. The shift for development per se is one thing, but I think the shift of computer use outside development is largely due to increased support for remote work, better bandwidth, and Web services. Not to mention cheap, blade-server GNU machines. Better GNU support for the non-development use of computers would hasten the move. When marketing and HR departments find it just as easy to do their work on GNU, the battle will be won. You will notice that most of the posts in this thread have taken the point of view of an individual computer user, and most often of a developer. To answer the question of which tools and processes get used in general and why, you need to look beyond the individual to the social groups s?he is part of. People work and play with others, and to do that they often use tools that the groups decide are most appropriate. Use of GNU/Linux has now moved beyond the hobbyist stage, thanks largely to Linux and cheap PCs. Its adoption and use are no longer decided only by lone hackers. Its growth is more and more determined by its utility to groups of people working together, often large groups. Developers built GNU/Linux, but they are no longer the only users.