From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: uzibalqa Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : menu-item uses no dot period before item-property-list in examples Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 19:07:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8KVXyoB690_WRcSshJNWRyfpXnFuHH1EeoSyseQ4vom2ykOfJzM-OLn_VXHJ0rtmAXRCAShQpwGUmEbfnXkjQx2P3iq8btzAfB5hqINKiPo=@proton.me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21438"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Drew Adams , uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor To: uzibalqa Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 21:08:03 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qLTZi-0005K3-M0 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 21:08:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLTZH-0005Li-5v; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:07:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLTZD-0005L4-Vt for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:07:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLTZA-00046G-0q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 15:07:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1689620827; x=1689880027; bh=5usCHUFuw0GCtWzc8sos/x7EqrZypC8MGthVuS0IUJ0=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=EEsE+Be+cF7824zsUlZxHP89Xp0tA6hguCWeBM2xhphJlEVkMEAsOqSfwg8I12714 dRHTHE7/PRPPNP/uB9cGHfmQjaaMJOqnc20CcBI+8kjp1vWN8Mn6mOUyTvR6VGQcq6 frC8dxgWk0TJ9hnSKR2yJikp0Hm3TSqM/EIWAE7vM5q1ERgTgZiQmmOAcwMj/VsDRH r7NX5lvfCmlxDTNs7W6QfSlGZcXO4/Z6YE7MuS1Kj4aongctdspTQ2ogj9H26RW58+ 882oqXJx9mrBaEJn+04lteuu7eILrEL5UGR6NDm3+P7iTDoK6vDTzyf6TMfltpHwIn rErFmZLKa3mrw== In-Reply-To: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.19; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-4319.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TO_EQ_FM_DIRECT_MX=0.252, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:144304 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 5:25 AM, uzibalqa wrote= : > ------- Original Message ------- > On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 4:56 AM, uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me wrote= : >=20 >=20 >=20 > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 4:36 AM, Drew Adams drew.adams@oracle.co= m wrote: > >=20 > > > > > > So why bother users in the manual why that is never actually us= ed. > > > > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding item-property-list) > > > > >=20 > > > > > I hope you meant this, which is not the same thing: > > > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding > > > > > . item-property-list) > > > > >=20 > > > > > item-property-list is not an element of the > > > > > overall list. It's "spliced" into that list, > > > > > as its tail. > > > >=20 > > > > Actual code implementations using menu-item does not include > > > > '.' before 'item-property-list'. > > > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) > > >=20 > > > Look again. item-property-list must be a list. > > > That list is not included as an element in > > > the list that starts (menu-item.... > > >=20 > > > Instead, the elements of item-property-list > > > are included as elements of list (menu-item.... > > > That's apparently what you're not getting. >=20 >=20 > Right, there is just a single list (menu-item.... with > elements in item-property-list appended to the list (menu-item.... >=20 > > > Example: > > >=20 > > > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > > > :help "Load this Elisp file") > > >=20 > > > item-name is "Load". > > > real-binding is diredp-load-this-file > > > item-property-list is > > > this 2-element list: (:help > > > "Load this Elisp file") > > >=20 > > > You do not see this: > > >=20 > > > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > > > (:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file")) > > > ^ ^ > > >=20 > > > which is equal to this: > > >=20 > > > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > > > . ((:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file"))) > > > ^ ^ ^ > > >=20 > > > What you do see is equal to this: > > >=20 > > > '(menu-item "Load" diredp-load-this-file > > > . (:help "Load this Emacs Lisp file")) > > >=20 > > > Now ask yourself why the syntax spec > > > shows a dot before item-property-list. > > >=20 > > > If you still don't get it, take a break, > > > stand on your head for a few minutes, run > > > around the block, then study this again... > > > till you do. > > >=20 > > > When you finally get it, go look at the > > > Emacs documentation that introduces lists > > > and their notation. You'll find it very > > > clear, I think. All of this is explained. > > >=20 > > > And yes, you should read the basics, such > > > as notation, before you start trying to > > > interpret the use of such notation in the > > > doc. E.g., before you try to interpret the > > > presentation of the syntax of extended menu > > > items, learn about Lisp dot notation. > > >=20 > > > And as has also been said, this isn't just > > > a doc notational convention. It's in fact > > > the actual, effective, real-life Lisp list > > > syntax. The documentation would benefit form some real-life Lisp list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from real-life. =20 > > Will check things out. > >=20 > > > Crawl, then walk, before trying to run. > > > That way, you'll find that running isn't > > > so difficult, mysterious, confusing, scary, > > > or user-unfriendly. > > >=20 > > > And that way maybe you'll stop kvetching > > > that you're "drowning" and that folks need > > > to quickly line up and start saving you. > > >=20 > > > Don't presume that those trying to help you > > > don't get it. You're not the first person > > > to learn Lisp, and you're not the first one > > > that people here, and Emacs itself, has > > > helped. >=20 >=20 > Have looked at the reference manual section >=20 > 2.4.6.2 Dotted Pair Notation >=20 > I do view it as very comprehensive. Perhaps it can be elaborated > about the thing happening with >=20 > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) >=20 > Or do you think it is good enough for understanding the above > clause readily without expert experience? >=20 >