finding the face of a popup

finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

Some popups have become invisible; I believe they have
foreground=background=white.  Since I am using the color-theme
package, I do not claim this is an emacs bug and I am not asking for a
fix.

My question is how do I find the name of this face.  For an example
Start with emacs -Q
and execute M-x customize RET

Place mouse on ``Go to Group''

Popup ``Create customization buffer for this group'' appears with
perfectly fine black looking text on a light yellow background.

But how do I find the name of this face (the one with black on yellow;
not ``custom-link'', the face of ``Go to Group'').

thanks,
allan

Re: finding the face of a popup

[John Paul Wallington]

Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:

> Some popups have become invisible; I believe they have
> foreground=background=white.  Since I am using the color-theme
> package, I do not claim this is an emacs bug and I am not asking for a
> fix.
>
> My question is how do I find the name of this face.

I'm not sure how to find that out, but the face's name is `tooltip'.
That is the commonly used name for those small windows that popup to
display information at the current mouse position.

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Mon, 27 Aug 2007 20:14:28 +0100 John Paul Wallington <jpw@pobox.com> wrote:

> Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:
>
>> Some popups have become invisible; I believe they have
>> foreground=background=white.  Since I am using the color-theme
>> package, I do not claim this is an emacs bug and I am not asking for a
>> fix.
>>
>> My question is how do I find the name of this face.
>
> I'm not sure how to find that out, but the face's name is `tooltip'.
> That is the commonly used name for those small windows that popup to
> display information at the current mouse position.

Thank you.  I was able to modify the color theme to fix that face.

But I do hope there is a better way to find out the face of a popup
than asking on the list.

Thanks again,
allan

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Tim X]

Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:

> At Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:29:50 +1000 Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote:
>
>> Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:
>>
>>> At Mon, 27 Aug 2007 20:14:28 +0100 John Paul Wallington <jpw@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Some popups have become invisible; I believe they have
>>>>> foreground=background=white.  Since I am using the color-theme
>>>>> package, I do not claim this is an emacs bug and I am not asking for a
>>>>> fix.
>>>>>
>>>>> My question is how do I find the name of this face.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how to find that out, but the face's name is `tooltip'.
>>>> That is the commonly used name for those small windows that popup to
>>>> display information at the current mouse position.
>>>
>>> Thank you.  I was able to modify the color theme to fix that face.
>>>
>>> But I do hope there is a better way to find out the face of a popup
>>> than asking on the list.
>>>
>>
>> In emacs 22 and higher, if you put point on the face, M-x customize-face
>> will default to that face under point. 
>>
>> However, a useful an more general approach is to use 
>>
>> ,----[ C-h f list-faces-display RET ]
>
> I don't see how either of these would help (I have used both before).
>
> I can't "put point on the face" since the popup goes away when I am
> not on the place that *triggers* the popup.  That is the entire
> problem.

and I gave you the solution. With list-faces-display you don't need to put
point anywhere to find the name of the face you are interested in.

If you do a list-faces-display you get a buffer that on one side lists the
name of all the defined faces (including tooltip) and on the other side a
sample of what that face looks like.

All you have to do to find the name of the face is scroll through the
buffer until you see a sample which matches the face your looking for (in
your case, a face with the same foreground and background colours, then you
either hit enter with point on the face name or use the mouse (instructions
at the top of the buffer) and you get a customize-face buffer where you can
set the foreground/background (and many other things. 

Tim

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:55:51 +1000 Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote:

> Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:
>
>> I can't "put point on the face" since the popup goes away when I am
>> not on the place that *triggers* the popup.  That is the entire
>> problem.
>
> and I gave you the solution. With list-faces-display you don't need to put
> point anywhere to find the name of the face you are interested in.
>
> If you do a list-faces-display you get a buffer that on one side lists the
> name of all the defined faces (including tooltip) and on the other side a
> sample of what that face looks like.
>
> All you have to do to find the name of the face is scroll through the
> buffer until you see a sample which matches the face your looking for (in
> your case, a face with the same foreground and background colours, then you
> either hit enter with point on the face name or use the mouse (instructions
> at the top of the buffer) and you get a customize-face buffer where you can
> set the foreground/background (and many other things. 

What if two or more faces have the same foreground and background?

I don't consider that a real solution; it is the best I know of at the
moment (other than having someone on the group tell me the name of the
face in reply to a question :-) ).

I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
field.

allan

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 29.08.2007 um 16:22 schrieb Allan Gottlieb:

> I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
> over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
> the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
> field.

The tooltips exist inside their own frames. Typing C-u C-x = on some  
thing that can make a tooltip appear could additionally display  
information about the tooltip, but: there is only one kind of  
tooltips. So it would mostly be useless information.

I think the proper way is to invoke apropos and enter the simple  
symbol ``tooltip´´. Then see what *Help* is returned – I think it's  
sufficient.


There are also X resources:

	Emacs.tooltip.attributeBackground:	cyan
	Emacs.tooltip.attributeForeground:	darkorange

Looks terrible!

--
Greetings

   Pete

"Specifications are for the weak and timid!"

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:26:40 +0200 Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> wrote:

> Am 29.08.2007 um 16:22 schrieb Allan Gottlieb:
>
>> I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
>> over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
>> the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
>> field.
>
> The tooltips exist inside their own frames. Typing C-u C-x = on some
> thing that can make a tooltip appear could additionally display
> information about the tooltip, but: there is only one kind of
> tooltips. So it would mostly be useless information.

Sure.  But you knew that the name of the face was tooltip; that is
exactly the information I didn't know (actually, forgot).  I guess I
am not expressing this very clearly.

Case 1. *Every* time emacs pops up something in this manner, the popup
has face `tooltip'.

Soln 1. Ensure that users know this.  It is doubtless in the manual,
but might be hard to find if you didn't know it was a tooltip.
I agree that I should have known since `tooltip' is hardly a term that
emacs invented.

Case 2. Popups occur for several reasons, some with different faces
than others.

Soln 2. Something along the lines I mentioned above that you quoted.
That is, if there is a source/cause/trigger of the popup, then face of
the popup could be mentioned when one asks for the face of the
trigger.  The quote of mine you gave was in response to eli's request
for a possible UI.

allan

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 29.08.2007 um 18:30 schrieb Allan Gottlieb:

> But you knew that the name of the face was tooltip; that is
> exactly the information I didn't know (actually, forgot).

The term ``tooltip´´ is in common use and it is not only GNU Emacs  
that uses them. Apple had before Mac OS X the balloon help, M$ is  
using screen tips. It is also obvious that a pop-up menu needs an  
action to happen before it can pop up, while the tooltip appears when  
the cursor comes close to some "magical" area.

When you don't know what a tooltip is, then a *Help* window with  
character properties, including those of the tooltip, won't help you  
either. It could give a hint, at least ...


I haven't read the tutorial for 25 years or so – could you check it  
and send a bug report (from Help menu), asking for an enhancement to  
describe tooltips? The Frames section of the Emacs info node has the  
tooltips:


Tooltips (or "Balloon Help")
============================

    Tooltips are small X windows displaying a help string at the current
mouse position, typically over text--including the mode line--which can
be activated with the mouse or other keys.  (This facility is sometimes
known as "balloon help".)  Help text may be available for menu items
too.

    To use tooltips, enable Tooltip mode with the command `M-x
tooltip-mode'.  The customization group `tooltip' controls various
aspects of how tooltips work.  When Tooltip mode is disabled, the help
text is displayed in the echo area instead.

    As of Emacs 21.1, tooltips are not supported on MS-Windows.  So help
text always appears in the echo area.


I haven't read this node until now. I really prefer the harder way  
using commands from the apropos family and then sort the hits into  
useful and not so useful ones. And even from these one can learn a  
few things. Another source of useful hints are the indexes in the  
Emacs info node: key, command, variable, concept, and option indexes.  
Again, when the term tooltip is unknown, then these indexes can't be  
of great help instantaneously. Realising that a tooltip is some kind  
of help that comes automatically, it seems sensible to me to look  
which ``help´´ entries the concept index offers. I just checked –  
it's real promising. Even on how to search documentation efficiently ...

--
Greetings

   Pete

To most people solutions mean finding the answers. But to chemists  
solutions
are things that are still all mixed up.

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:29:08 +0200 Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> wrote:

> Am 29.08.2007 um 18:30 schrieb Allan Gottlieb:
>
>> But you knew that the name of the face was tooltip; that is
>> exactly the information I didn't know (actually, forgot).
>
> The term ``tooltip´´ is in common use and it is not only GNU Emacs
> that uses them. Apple had before Mac OS X the balloon help, M$ is
> using screen tips. It is also obvious that a pop-up menu needs an
> action to happen before it can pop up, while the tooltip appears when
> the cursor comes close to some "magical" area.
>
> When you don't know what a tooltip is, then a *Help* window with
> character properties, including those of the tooltip, won't help you
> either. It could give a hint, at least ...
>
> I haven't read the tutorial for 25 years or so – could you check it
> and send a bug report (from Help menu), asking for an enhancement to
> describe tooltips? The Frames section of the Emacs info node has the
> tooltips:

I had sent another msg after the one you replied to (our msgs crossed
in the mail) so I think we are in agreement.  Below is an excerpt from
that later msg.

allan

Case 1. *Every* time emacs pops up something in this manner, the popup
has face `tooltip'.

Soln 1. Ensure that users know this.  It is doubtless in the manual,
but might be hard to find if you didn't know it was a tooltip.
I agree that I should have known since `tooltip' is hardly a term that
emacs invented.

Case 2. Popups occur for several reasons, some with different faces
than others.

Soln 2. Something along the lines I mentioned above that you quoted.
That is, if there is a source/cause/trigger of the popup, then face of
the popup could be mentioned when one asks for the face of the
trigger.  The quote of mine you gave was in response to eli's request
for a possible UI.

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Tim X]

Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:

>
> I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
> over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
> the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
> field.
>

I think the problem with that is that you are mixing up two different
levels of the application. The popup/tooltip is a function of the mouse
location. The  C-u C-x = describes what is around point and the tool tip is
not really around point - in fact, technically, you could define a tool tip
that pops up whenever the mouse enters the (buffer - its not done because
that would be annoying, but it could be done).

With respect to your other point of list-faces-display not being good
enough because you might have more than one face with the same color -  I
think thats a non-issue. There are only a couple of faces you cannot put
point on - tooltip and modeline are two obvious ones. For the others, you
can use the C-u C-x =.  However, the main reason I think its a non-issue is
that its not a common or frequent problem and when it is, you do have a
solution - even if its not what you would want in your ideal
world. Personally, I'd rather see effort put into extending/improving
things that are more frequently an issue, such as support for better fonts
or development environments that can provide more of the features we see in
more modern systems, such as the stuff being done with semantic and cedet
etc. 

Regardless of different opinions, the really good thing is that if you feel
its important enough that C-u C-x = displays information about a tooltip
which may be triggered nearby, then you can go and implement it. Unlike
other closed systems, we don't have to endlessly winge about missing
features hoping someone hears us and does what we want - instead we can
just go off and do it. 

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:26:48 +1000 Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote:

> Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:
>
>>
>> I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
>> over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
>> the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
>> field.
>>
>
> I think the problem with that is that you are mixing up two different
> levels of the application. The popup/tooltip is a function of the mouse
> location. The  C-u C-x = describes what is around point and the tool tip is
> not really around point - in fact, technically, you could define a tool tip
> that pops up whenever the mouse enters the (buffer - its not done because
> that would be annoying, but it could be done).

In that case info about the popup could be given whenever you execute
C-u C-x = in that buffer.  I agree with you that such behavior would
be annoying, but it could be done.  That is you could keep the rule
that C-u C-x = gives info about the current face and any popups that
are triggered.

> With respect to your other point of list-faces-display not being good
> enough because you might have more than one face with the same color -  I
> think thats a non-issue. There are only a couple of faces you cannot put
> point on - tooltip and modeline are two obvious ones. For the others, you
> can use the C-u C-x =.  However, the main reason I think its a non-issue is
> that its not a common or frequent problem and when it is, you do have a
> solution - even if its not what you would want in your ideal
> world.

I agree with you but would say "(very) unimportant issue"

> Regardless of different opinions, the really good thing is that if you feel
> its important enough that C-u C-x = displays information about a tooltip
> which may be triggered nearby, then you can go and implement it.

Agreed.  I should point out that I mentioned the specific interface in
reply to Eli who asked for it.

allan

RE: finding the face of a popup

[Drew Adams]

> > I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
> > over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
> > the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
> > field.
>
> I think the problem with that is that you are mixing up two different
> levels of the application. The popup/tooltip is a function of the mouse
> location. The  C-u C-x = describes what is around point and the
> tool tip is not really around point

1. See library facemenu+.el, which enhances standard library facemenu.el in
various ways.

In particular, it uses the mouse pointer position when Text Properties >
Describe Properties is accessed from the mouse popup menu ('C-mouse-2').

So, instead of using `C-x =', you can just point the mouse where you want,
use `C-mouse-2' to bring up the Text Properties menu, and choose menu item
Describe Properties. You'll see a description of the text properties at the
mouse pointer position (not the text cursor position).

http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/FaceMenuPlus#TextPropertiesMenu


2. However, this won't help with the problem raised by the OP, because Emacs
never lets the mouse pointer point to a tooltip: as soon as you move the
mouse toward the tooltip, the tooltip disappears. That's TRT.

I really think that there is no great solution to this, which I also don't
think is a big problem. If you know that a tooltip is called a "tooltip"
(and many users do nowadays), then you can use `apropos', as suggested. If
you don't know that, then you can use `list-faces-display', as suggested,
and check each face that looks like what is used for tooltips - there are
probably not 36 such faces.

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Tim X]

Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:

> At Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:26:48 +1000 Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote:
>
>> Allan Gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> writes:
>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the description of a face given by placing point
>>> over a field and typing C-u C-x = should tell you
>>> the face of a popup that is triggered when the mouse is over that
>>> field.
>>>
>>
>> I think the problem with that is that you are mixing up two different
>> levels of the application. The popup/tooltip is a function of the mouse
>> location. The  C-u C-x = describes what is around point and the tool tip is
>> not really around point - in fact, technically, you could define a tool tip
>> that pops up whenever the mouse enters the (buffer - its not done because
>> that would be annoying, but it could be done).
>
> In that case info about the popup could be given whenever you execute
> C-u C-x = in that buffer.  I agree with you that such behavior would
> be annoying, but it could be done.  That is you could keep the rule
> that C-u C-x = gives info about the current face and any popups that
> are triggered.
>
>> With respect to your other point of list-faces-display not being good
>> enough because you might have more than one face with the same color -  I
>> think thats a non-issue. There are only a couple of faces you cannot put
>> point on - tooltip and modeline are two obvious ones. For the others, you
>> can use the C-u C-x =.  However, the main reason I think its a non-issue is
>> that its not a common or frequent problem and when it is, you do have a
>> solution - even if its not what you would want in your ideal
>> world.
>
> I agree with you but would say "(very) unimportant issue"
>
>> Regardless of different opinions, the really good thing is that if you feel
>> its important enough that C-u C-x = displays information about a tooltip
>> which may be triggered nearby, then you can go and implement it.
>
> Agreed.  I should point out that I mentioned the specific interface in
> reply to Eli who asked for it.
>

At the risk of thrashing the issue within an inch of its life....

There was something bugging me about the issue of a better interface to
communicate the tooltip info and then I realised what it was. The problem
here isn't really an interface problem, but rather a terminology and
communication problem. All of this occured because it wasn't obvious that
the feature being observed was called a tooltip. It is likely that even if
C-u C-x = did include information about tooltips that may appear near
point, anyone who didn't know what a tooltip was or know that the popup was
a tooltip is likely not to recognise that the additional bit of information
being communicated related to the temporary popup - in the worst case, it
might even create more confusion. 

The solution is likely much harder to achieve than making an addition to
the interface as it is a much more difficult problem to define precisely -
how do you ensure users are familiar with the names of all the interface
components and what is the best way of communicating that information. Some
would argue that it just needs to be made clearer in the manual or maybe
suggest adding it to the FAQ etc. However, there are a large number of
users who never bother with manuals/faqs. some would argue thats their
problem then - if they don't read the odcs, they get the confusion they
deserve. However, I think thats a bit of a cop out - we know there is a
significant number of people who dont read docs, but part of a good
interface design is to have an interface that doesn't need the user to read
through a bunch of docs before they can start using it. 

I don't know the answer - not even sure if there is an answer. 

One addition, which I know is a bit tricky, that I would like to see in
emacs is code that will either prevent or warn against face colour options
that will be unreadable. This is tricky because of so many unknown
variables, such as screen size, resolution, font, user eye sight
etc. However, things could probably be improved by eliminating the really
obvious cases, such as the original issue that started this thread - a
tooltip with the same foreground and background colour. I suspect Allan
wouldn't have had as difficult a time working out what the popup was if he
had been able to at least read the text being displayed. He would have seen
it was some form of help information, which may have either narrowed down
the areas in the manual to search or jogged the memory enough that he would
have been able to use things like apropos to find the face. 

While on this topic, I have a couple of questions about face colours. I
actually don't worry about them anymore, but when I use to, I had issues
because I always use to use a black background. However, often faces have
defaults that are obviously based on white/light backgrounds, resulting in
defaults that are often difficult or impossible to read. There is a
variable that can be set to specify the type of default background
i.e. 'dark, but it doesn't seem to do anything - you still get default
faces that are dark on dark. 

is this problem due to people not using/defining faces correctly or is this
a limitation of the way face properties are implemented. More specifically,
what does the default-frame-mode variable actually do as it doesn't seem to
have any real affect?

Tim



-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: finding the face of a popup

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:04:07 +1000 Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> wrote:

> At the risk of thrashing the issue within an inch of its life....

I agree that we have thrashed this enough and will stop with this posting

> There was something bugging me about the issue of a better interface to
> communicate the tooltip info and then I realised what it was. The problem
> here isn't really an interface problem, but rather a terminology and
> communication problem. All of this occured because it wasn't obvious that
> the feature being observed was called a tooltip. It is likely that even if
> C-u C-x = did include information about tooltips that may appear near
> point, anyone who didn't know what a tooltip was or know that the popup was
> a tooltip is likely not to recognise that the additional bit of information
> being communicated related to the temporary popup - in the worst case, it
> might even create more confusion.

My suggestion was not about tooltips specifically, but about popups.
If C-u C-x = said something like "placing the mouse over this field
pops text using the tooltip face", I would have known what to look for
(indeed, I should have anyway) even though the text was unreadable in
this case (foreground=background).

> The solution is likely much harder to achieve than making an addition to
> the interface as it is a much more difficult problem to define precisely -
> how do you ensure users are familiar with the names of all the interface
> components and what is the best way of communicating that information. Some
> would argue that it just needs to be made clearer in the manual or maybe
> suggest adding it to the FAQ etc. However, there are a large number of
> users who never bother with manuals/faqs. some would argue thats their
> problem then - if they don't read the odcs, they get the confusion they
> deserve. However, I think thats a bit of a cop out - we know there is a
> significant number of people who dont read docs, but part of a good
> interface design is to have an interface that doesn't need the user to read
> through a bunch of docs before they can start using it. 
>
> I don't know the answer - not even sure if there is an answer. 

>
> One addition, which I know is a bit tricky, that I would like to see in
> emacs is code that will either prevent or warn against face colour options
> that will be unreadable. This is tricky because of so many unknown
> variables, such as screen size, resolution, font, user eye sight
> etc. However, things could probably be improved by eliminating the really
> obvious cases, such as the original issue that started this thread - a
> tooltip with the same foreground and background colour. I suspect Allan
> wouldn't have had as difficult a time working out what the popup was if he
> had been able to at least read the text being displayed. He would have seen
> it was some form of help information, which may have either narrowed down
> the areas in the manual to search or jogged the memory enough that he would
> have been able to use things like apropos to find the face. 

Agreed, completely.

> While on this topic, I have a couple of questions about face colours. I
> actually don't worry about them anymore, but when I use to, I had issues
> because I always use to use a black background. However, often faces have
> defaults that are obviously based on white/light backgrounds, resulting in
> defaults that are often difficult or impossible to read. There is a
> variable that can be set to specify the type of default background
> i.e. 'dark, but it doesn't seem to do anything - you still get default
> faces that are dark on dark. 
>
> is this problem due to people not using/defining faces correctly or is this
> a limitation of the way face properties are implemented. More specifically,
> what does the default-frame-mode variable actually do as it doesn't seem to
> have any real affect?

I also have trouble because I use a black background.  I currently use
color-theme and the specific theme dark-laptop.  However, it is not
perfect.  The unreadable tooltip, modeline-inactive that looks like
the window itself, customized buttons not raised, ... .  I have fixed
some and will eventually fix all the ones I need.  I have found the
color-theme infrastructure to be quite useful.

allan