From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Init error message Date: 13 Mar 2003 15:03:27 +0100 Organization: T-Online Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <1fgba.43206$sf5.31886@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net> <24Oba.66302$qi4.41393@rwcrnsc54> <87hea7xvz5.fsf@china.shootybangbang.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1047564364 7679 80.91.224.249 (13 Mar 2003 14:06:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:06:04 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 13 15:06:01 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18tTL0-0001y4-00 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:05:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 18tTL0-0003Sa-02 for gnu-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:05:38 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs,comp.emacs.xemacs Original-Followup-To: comp.emacs,comp.emacs.xemacs Original-Lines: 70 Original-X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1047564224 07 20011 0B0REI8ESlADQE 030313 14:03:44 Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-ID: S1hZ4QZHYePvK6-u1TGmkbdgAmbLgRGchkHQSiL8emdF3I7gNH2zY- X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6,xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN;i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:111057 comp.emacs:78179 comp.emacs.xemacs:70066 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:7557 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:7557 Let me add as a prerequisite that I have no talents to be polite or diplomatic. So don't take posts like this personal. I have Xpost/Fuped this to comp.emacs and comp.emacs.xemacs which I consider more fitting to this discussion (even though it might be considered sufficiently rehashed to death) than gnu.emacs.help. John Paul Wallington writes: > Le Wang wrote: > > > It's in my (and our) interest to see both efforts continue and > > thrive. > > This is a matter of opinion. See for example: > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=rjd6z1x1qt.fsf%40ssv2.dina.kvl.dk > > Do you think a merge is desirable? Yes. > Do you agree that in order to merge the projects, one of the > projects has to be shutdown? Yes. There _is_ already merging going on all the time in the direction Emacs->XEmacs. This does not cut it for application developers. It is clear that the survivor must be GNU Emacs copyrighted by the FSF. Emacs is a core piece of GNU software, the FSF will not relinquish control, Stallman himself is actively working on it. This does not mean that core pieces of XEmacs could or should not be integrated into GNU Emacs and replace stuff there that is suboptimal, but it means that integrators would need to be willing and legally capable of signing over their work to the FSF, _and_ would need to get along well enough with Stallman in order to progress with substantial changes to a core project of his, including extensive changes and documentation of internals. Stallman is a very headstrong person. While he is not malignant, it can be a chore working with him. Free Software needs a man of his qualities, so I tend to arrange what it is necessary in order to cooperate with him, even though there are times when he drives me up the wall. I don't see too much willingness of the _core_ developers of XEmacs to cope with what would be necessary for a merge. And frankly, cooperating with Stallman on a comtinued basis is not something that one could reasonably _demand_ from anybody to cope with. If at all, such participation would have to be voluntary, and on a project as large as a merge of XEmacs and Emacs it would be very taxing to both parties. Personally, I think that one way to improve matters would be that if XEmacs developers came up with some new functionality and/or API, they would discuss it also on the Emacs developer lists and would offer to sign the respective papers and stuff in order to help implementing it also in Emacs. And if the original plans get thwarted for some different interface of comparable usefulness, rather implement that in XEmacs. Yes, it will expose them to GNU Emacs and Stallman more than they like, but it will help lessen the amount in which application programmers get screwed that have to cater for both Emacsen. This will not buy us a unified Emacs, but it would lessen the bad impact of the split. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum