emacs user group in germany

emacs user group in germany

[Fabian Braennstroem]

Hello everybody,

is there anything like an emacs-user-group in germany, especially around
duesseldorf?

Greetings
Fabian

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Carsten Weinberg]

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:15:58 +0100
Fabian Braennstroem <f.braennstroem@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hello everybody,
> 
> is there anything like an emacs-user-group in germany, especially around
> duesseldorf?
> 

I wonder that teher isn't any reply to Fabians message. Is there really no German emacs user group?

Re: emacs user group in germany

[David Kastrup]

Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> writes:

> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:15:58 +0100
> Fabian Braennstroem <f.braennstroem@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> > is there anything like an emacs-user-group in germany, especially
> > around duesseldorf?
> 
> I wonder that teher isn't any reply to Fabians message. Is there
> really no German emacs user group?

I doubt that there is an explicit "Emacs user group" anywhere.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Raimund Kohl-Fuechsle]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:20:26 +0100
Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:15:58 +0100
> Fabian Braennstroem <f.braennstroem@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> > Hello everybody,
> > 
> > is there anything like an emacs-user-group in germany, especially
> > around duesseldorf?
> > 
> 
> I wonder that teher isn't any reply to Fabians message. Is there
> really no German emacs user group?

At least not to my knowledge ... sorry :-)

What seaks against opening up one?

ray

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Carsten Weinberg]

>> I wonder that teher isn't any reply to Fabians message. Is there
>> really no German emacs user group?

> What seaks against opening up one?

definitely nothing. 

Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site that German GNU/Linux users mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate that Germans don't like emacs. My proposal is that making emacs more popular under Germans should be one of the goals of a future German emacs user group. 

Cheers
-Carsten

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Jan 13 2004, Carsten Weinberg wrote:

> Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site

URL?  Why do you think that his statement is correct?

> that German GNU/Linux users mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate
> that Germans don't like emacs. 

The ChangeLogs of Emacs, Gnus and AUCTeX show over 70 unique email
addresses ending with "\.de" [1].  Reading the German language editors
<news:de.comp.editoren> and Gnus <news:de.comm.software.gnus>
newsgroups also shows that lot of Germans use and like Emacs.

Bye, Reiner.

[1] Of course, this list contains some duplicates, but it may also
    miss some German developers.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW   http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: emacs user group in germany

[David Kastrup]

Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> writes:

> >> I wonder that teher isn't any reply to Fabians message. Is there
> >> really no German emacs user group?
> 
> > What seaks against opening up one?
> 
> definitely nothing. 
> 
> Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site that German GNU/Linux users
> mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate that Germans don't like
> emacs.

Very.  Thousands of Germans are cursing while using Emacs.

> My proposal is that making emacs more popular under Germans should
> be one of the goals of a future German emacs user group.

Well, I have heard that preview-latex even caused some die-hard vi
users to actually switch, so you might want to consider collecting for
my beer tab at a prospective meeting.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Carsten Weinberg]

Okay, there are so many emacs users in Germany, that establishing a emacs user group in Germany will be very easy - right ;-)

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Raimund Kohl-Fuechsle]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:49:03 +0100
Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> wrote:

> Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site that German GNU/Linux users
> mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate that Germans don't like emacs.
> My proposal is that making emacs more popular under Germans should be
> one of the goals of a future German emacs user group. 

I use it and I like it ... and I think a whole bunch of TeXis/LaTeXis do
use it to ... and if it were only because of Auctex, but I honestly
believe if one started using it he will keep with it.  But, well, I may
be wrong :-)

ray

Re: emacs user group in germany

[David Kastrup]

Raimund Kohl-Fuechsle <ray@nabuli.de> writes:

> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:49:03 +0100
> Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> wrote:
> 
> > Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site that German GNU/Linux users
> > mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate that Germans don't like emacs.
> > My proposal is that making emacs more popular under Germans should be
> > one of the goals of a future German emacs user group. 
> 
> I use it and I like it ... and I think a whole bunch of TeXis/LaTeXis do
> use it to ... and if it were only because of Auctex,

And font-latex and RefTeX and preview-latex and X-Symbol and
WhizzyTeX and align.el and ...

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> And font-latex and RefTeX and preview-latex and X-Symbol and
> WhizzyTeX and align.el and ...

... gnus, and canna.el, CJK language support, and ...

-- 
G Hassenpflug RASC, Kyoto University

Re: emacs user group in germany

[David Kastrup]

Gernot Hassenpflug <gh@nospam.com> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > And font-latex and RefTeX and preview-latex and X-Symbol and
> > WhizzyTeX and align.el and ...
> 
> ... gnus, and canna.el, CJK language support, and ...

Which are not particular important to TeX users, the group of users
mentioned in the post you were replying to.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Klaus Berndl]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Raimund Kohl-Fuechsle wrote:

>  On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:49:03 +0100
>  Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> wrote:
>  
> > Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site that German GNU/Linux users
> > mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate that Germans don't like emacs.
> > My proposal is that making emacs more popular under Germans should be
> > one of the goals of a future German emacs user group. 
>  
>  I use it and I like it ... and I think a whole bunch of TeXis/LaTeXis do
>  use it to ... and if it were only because of Auctex, but I honestly

There are also Germans who use Emacs not (only for TeX et. al.) but also for
programming... some Germans even try to program with elisp to make Emacs (even
;-) better suitable for programming tasks ;-), see
http://ecb.sourceforge.net/

I don`t think that a German Emacs newsgroup is necessary for users who use
Emacs for programming but for writing TeX/LaTeX it could indeed be helpful -
especially for all special aspects of German language (e.g. Umlaute äöüÄÖÜ
etc...) and how to deal best with them with TeX/Emacs

Klaus

>  believe if one started using it he will keep with it.  But, well, I may
>  be wrong :-)
>  
>  ray

-- 
Klaus Berndl			mailto: klaus.berndl@sdm.de
sd&m AG				http://www.sdm.de
software design & management	
Carl-Wery-Str. 42, 81739 Muenchen, Germany
Tel +49 89 63812-392, Fax -220

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Alan Mackenzie]

Reiner Steib <4.uce.03.r.s@nurfuerspam.de> wrote on Tue, 13 Jan 2004
21:40:39 +0100:
> On Tue, Jan 13 2004, Carsten Weinberg wrote:

>> Nikolai Bezroukov explains on hist site

> URL?  Why do you think that his statement is correct?

>> that German GNU/Linux users mostly use vi.  It is very unfortunate
>> that Germans don't like emacs. 

> The ChangeLogs of Emacs, Gnus and AUCTeX show over 70 unique email
> addresses ending with "\.de" [1].  Reading the German language editors
> <news:de.comp.editoren> and Gnus <news:de.comm.software.gnus>
> newsgroups also shows that lot of Germans use and like Emacs.

> Bye, Reiner.

> [1] Of course, this list contains some duplicates, but it may also
>     miss some German developers.

...and, of course, may also list some developers who aren't German at
all, but merely happen to live in Germany.  :-)

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Gernot Hassenpflug <gh@nospam.com> writes:
>
>> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> > And font-latex and RefTeX and preview-latex and X-Symbol and
>> > WhizzyTeX and align.el and ...
>> 
>> ... gnus, and canna.el, CJK language support, and ...
>
> Which are not particular important to TeX users, the group of users
> mentioned in the post you were replying to.

True perhaps, but I point out that as a German user of TeX and LeTeX
requiring Japanese characters, I am extremely grateful to emacs for
having such a good CJ environment .
-- 
G Hassenpflug RASC, Kyoto University

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Fabian Braennstroem]

On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 08:20, Klaus Berndl wrote:

> 
> I don`t think that a German Emacs newsgroup is necessary for users who use
> Emacs for programming but for writing TeX/LaTeX it could indeed be helpful -
> especially for all special aspects of German language (e.g. Umlaute äöüÄÖÜ
> etc...) and how to deal best with them with TeX/Emacs
> 
What about Gnus/Wanderlust? 

> 
> >  believe if one started using it he will keep with it.  But, well, I may
> >  be wrong :-)
I think so too! But I think if someone gets interactive help during the
first steps, even more will use it for Latex/Gnus/Programming :-)

Greetings!
Fabian

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Carsten Weinberg]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:39:22 +0000
Alan Mackenzie <none@example.invalid> wrote:

> ..and, of course, may also list some developers who aren't German at
> all, but merely happen to live in Germany.  :-)

Guess the Germans should better stop fooling themselves. Nikolai Bezroukov is right. Just a couple of days ago one of the too many vi users called me an "traitor".  "traitors" or not -  there are still enough German emacs users there to found an emacs user group in Germany. Therefore let us discuss about the future user groups goals, and our motivation founding one.

Re: emacs user group in germany

[David Kastrup]

Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> writes:

> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:39:22 +0000
> Alan Mackenzie <none@example.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > ..and, of course, may also list some developers who aren't German
> > at all, but merely happen to live in Germany.  :-)
> 
> Guess the Germans should better stop fooling themselves. Nikolai
> Bezroukov is right. Just a couple of days ago one of the too many vi
> users called me an "traitor".

Which would imply that you were once a vi user.  Well, is he using
some fancy clone able to visit multiple buffers, able to deal with
cursor keys?  Call him a traitor right back.  Better change to
something entirely different rather than besmear the memories of an
editor for which a man page was adequate documentation.

vi is history; vim and elvis and nvi and others are nothing but
revisionism.

> "traitors" or not - there are still enough German emacs users there
> to found an emacs user group in Germany. Therefore let us discuss
> about the future user groups goals, and our motivation founding one.

Active proselytizing.  I recently posted a proposal on emacs-devel for
something that people agreed on might be called "assistants" (aka
wizards, gurus, whatever): an easy and conspicuous mechanism telling
people about available improvements and customizations to the current
major-mode that would have almost no performance or memory impacts
except when you actually called them.

For example, take minibuffer-mode: who knows about
iswitchb-mode, file-name-shadow-mode,
minibuffer-electric-default-mode and so on?

Useful for everybody, used by nobody.  It is one thing to have user
groups where people teach one another, but it would be another to
have some automatisms.  One needs only basic programming skills to
implement something like that, and the motivation would be to get
others to learn to use Emacs better.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Carsten Weinberg]

On 14 Jan 2004 23:17:07 +0100
David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:

> 
> Which would imply that you were once a vi user.  

what you think sounds logical, in real is polemical.


> Active proselytizing.  I recently posted a proposal on emacs-devel for

Guess people like you are dogmatic and destructive.

Re: emacs user group in germany

[David Kastrup]

Carsten Weinberg <cweinberg@firemail.de> writes:

> On 14 Jan 2004 23:17:07 +0100
> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Which would imply that you were once a vi user.  
> 
> what you think sounds logical, in real is polemical.
> 
> 
> > Active proselytizing.  I recently posted a proposal on emacs-devel
> > for
> 
> Guess people like you are dogmatic and destructive.

Thanks for this undogmatic and constructive criticism to my proposal.
It's always nice getting positive feedback about the work one does for
Emacs, and about technical proposals to improve it.  Makes me really
proud to be project maintainer for several important Emacs packages as
well as an active Emacs developer.

Perhaps one of your goals for a German Emacs user group could be to
organize taking package maintenance into the hands of less dogmatic
and destructive people?  It is not exactly that I was overly keen on
becoming, say, AUCTeX maintainer, and you certainly sound like you
would be much better suited to motivate people to participate in
projects aimed at improving the user experience of Emacs.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Oliver Scholz]

I don’t quite understand what an “Emacs user group in Germany” is. An
internet based forum other than de.comp.editoren and the German pages
on www.emacswiki.org? An “bundesweiter eingetragener Verein” with the
goal of promoting Emacs (complete with constitution, executive board
and annual general assemblies)?  I live in Frankfurt and “Germany”
could be far away from here.

I’d be interested in an Emacs user group in or around Frankfurt,
though. For socializing. It could be an interesting new experience for
me to communicate about Emacs via the face-to-face protocol.

I mean, to communicate about Emacs with people who actually answer and
who do not have this oh-he-is-talking-about-his-weird-computer-hobby
facial expression on.

    Oliver
-- 
26 Nivôse an 212 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Adam Hardy]

On 01/14/2004 09:39 AM Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>>The ChangeLogs of Emacs, Gnus and AUCTeX show over 70 unique email
>>addresses ending with "\.de" [1].  Reading the German language editors
>><news:de.comp.editoren> and Gnus <news:de.comm.software.gnus>
>>newsgroups also shows that lot of Germans use and like Emacs.
> 
>>Bye, Reiner.
> 
> 
>>[1] Of course, this list contains some duplicates, but it may also
>>    miss some German developers.
> 
> 
> ...and, of course, may also list some developers who aren't German at
> all, but merely happen to live in Germany.  :-)
> 

Exactly. I live in Germany and have a .com in my email address, and know 
of several others too. Emacs rockt, so zu sagen.

Adam
-- 
GNU Emacs 21.3.1 on Linux 2.4.20 Debian

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Fabian Braennstroem]

On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 11:20, Oliver Scholz wrote:
> I don’t quite understand what an “Emacs user group in Germany” is. An
> internet based forum other than de.comp.editoren and the German pages
> on www.emacswiki.org? An “bundesweiter eingetragener Verein” with the
> goal of promoting Emacs (complete with constitution, executive board
> and annual general assemblies)?  
> I live in Frankfurt and “Germany”
> could be far away from here.
> 
> I’d be interested in an Emacs user group in or around Frankfurt,
> though. For socializing. It could be an interesting new experience for
> me to communicate about Emacs via the face-to-face protocol. 
> 
The face-to-face protocol would be helpful especially for beginners.
That could be a first step of promoting emacs.
For me in or around Düsseldorf would be interesting. Maybe a user-group
for germany is hard to handle ;-)

Greeting!
Fabian

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Fabian Braennstroem]

On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 14:15, Fabian Braennstroem wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> is there anything like an emacs-user-group in germany, especially around
> duesseldorf?
> 
But maybe, there are some people with interest in emacs who join a linux
user group around duesseldorf!?
Right now I go to the very small LUG in Krefeld; there, I am the only
beginning-emacs-user; the same situation was in Berlin.

Greetings!
Fabian

Re: emacs user group in germany

[Alex Ott]

Hello

>>>>> "AH" == Adam Hardy writes:
 > [1] Of course, this list contains some duplicates, but it may also
 > miss some German developers.
 >> ...and, of course, may also list some developers who aren't German at
 >> all, but merely happen to live in Germany.  :-)
 >> 

 AH> Exactly. I live in Germany and have a .com in my email address, and
 AH> know of several others too. Emacs rockt, so zu sagen.

I live outside Germany, but German Emacs User group sounds like interesting
idea 

-- 
With best wishes, Alex Ott	http://xtalk.msk.su/~ott/

A team effort is a lot of people doing what I say.
	-- Michael Winner, British film director