From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Placement of list within an interactive clause Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2022 04:46:16 +0200 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1996"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: carlmarcos@tutanota.com, Help Gnu Emacs To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 17 04:47:25 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oCuJY-0000Kg-KQ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 17 Jul 2022 04:47:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50226 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oCuJX-0005za-80 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 22:47:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35628) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oCuJ2-0005zB-1a for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 22:46:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:38177) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oCuIz-0004NY-VU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 22:46:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1658025976; bh=ouAFQ/oGkBvuDXBDlsM045VRpi5MMF8IkgTC+IUnyj0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=Z9K9NCw+2wsRvKmLFWIiFFGTyv9EPtS2U3Fb+QOvALr5h1v8pR08fVa2jhc5aiP0H 3Ox9zmRFG3h5gqOl+EeqFjH+RkBK9hBNKgeGLDu16iFwUP1EURiNNlQ7ShQdxlIwu7 aJve+uRFgyjqsRfb1I7GIwqJkhoI2kR3u0gmvW3s= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs14.server.lan [172.19.170.182]) (via HTTP); Sun, 17 Jul 2022 04:46:16 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3sl7F7jtsb3O3WL4LYxPTKbM3d5BVHlplE7jFdQGqZ/IPhWvMsmrxN0nCnX//TDqF09+Q w21/Qwv3xTY92SLqeb8MPXFMrWdfKGfmp8eynZPznEz6CX5GG5Vxa8nqNK/jNjx40mVTU7ZUSiaP EMEpS6Uezy9a6lwM9ufESrIu9mLPpB6uzfgpHffi7X+YoouJiKDwqP0QbEGYxQSLEUI6fNv9zlxY PqgJpNjh04cPTWduMLvYhuE+5oSaiM833BnI/x87VSYM/HkJWiwWzsJP7gNOaMS2iqvbp+JB2qrB iQ= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ATpD9RUf8MY=:n+0e8/kvw9kW4TCUhjpy9O Q75L7ADib1NU0pVfzAdE4IvXQs0Z6pGxgLsyogSyW+QPn2YVFs9fkYC86A1qB+YdZIeVeAKse mbouaBrfpchbUkyBI1e9+dCRDHvs6isUzx5RVnqd6abYQLPpZOOCW9Zej2bolNZJUZg2bn1vK G64/0C+/eRnKyF7XbujfIYDMamncuvcl59l3T4AgK17HLc0ftaOglWrGZpKYGmoHyKxOfqDx3 zDXT1loYxpecf/y2/YVpvwb/3ud3iqhv8kCNg30L567vF7LLUBeaungdTpeI6QTH0+EWO/gCZ MDzbov7X8uZoWrgVbFWW6kHnrsNMdwHgAfTVWtyp3L4tjlpxGDnUZYl6kX5jhtqreIN2Zr4KR hPEv5frgTM0uqAMuIbwMDPNskfjpl4myP4XK6uMmwZ5q/peq775P+uIKYmpSl21/SbDexHZp4 MkGobMHTvI74OtWFAf6mW6CiGKZt4vLkzmNhYnqTMCKsgZvN7Fe9oc0cyvpHaOGOVPAaVA3CR +t5y1+TrGz6Qu6Cfs7IeFpsRGdxaWRQo/jaVv93WzX569tSS3oUz0Gv3u8P7k403e5MZrpVQf 4cQPYXn/COmJR50zNWFgKQHqQX5CzL98gnRNAbWJ1kMhlY64lRKQrZjDpGkEMZP8S/UuAnmGd 2dGRzzikF6KoulHw41HxrZKX3v3oqBJpwLJdXYXMBQbaJu6MMky738PvXK7WhjgBlN1YjdEN+ d7s7PNduhXfazHZwk6t5NnVqa+HDtcvuhnmEUXAY+eebE6OoSol7b8p/gqNu2kXnOfRZssPd Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.19; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:138512 Archived-At: > Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 2:16 PM > From: "Jean Louis" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: carlmarcos@tutanota.com, "Help Gnu Emacs" > Subject: Re: Placement of list within an interactive clause > > * Christopher Dimech [2022-07-17 04:53]: > > > > Emacs is very interactive. > > > > > > Do you maybe think that functions without (interactive) declaration > > > shall not ask user anything? > > > > > > When invoked only from Lisp there are many uses for such functions. > > > > Sure, but if you want a fully non-interactive function, do not call > > minibuffer functionality in the body of the function. > > OK and now, how do I apply that advise? If I want X, then do not do > Y. Of course. But how is such advise practically useful? > > What you are saying, seem to come from programming theories. Yes, because users need a sensible way to navigate the code. When experi= enced programmers stumble, focused terminology would make things quite clear. Terminology that is too broad has no practical value. > > > Does it really need to be text input to be considered interactive? > > > > > > Logging of activities may be displayed in a buffer, that is > > > interactive too. Input alone is not interaction. Changing Emacs styl= e > > > is also interaction and need not be invoked interactively. > > > > Defining interaction too broadly makes it useless, because it cannot > > distinguish between anything. For emacs, interaction should always > > be associated with direct user input (never with automatic input or > > customisation within the program through elisp, unless you ask the use= r > > to directly input operational inputs). > > If you decide to manipulate paragraph it is direct user input. If you > press button to open browser it is direct user input. All key presses > represent direct user input. Yes, but is automatic. There is no user prose involved. > Including sound recording, it is also direct user input. > > What would be example of indirect user input? Let me know about it. > > > For the broader context one can describe "intercommunication" with ema= cs. > > Interactive in emacs in most times associated with user interaction vi= a > > M-x or keybinding. > > Word may have different definitions. Which definition applies depends > of the context of the word. You are mixing both Emacs definition of > (interactive) and common definitions. And then you insist that a beep, > flash, movement of window borders, text scaling, paragraph > manipulations and similar are not interactive, but only minibuffer > input is to be considered interactive. And now we have a new word > "intercommunication" as well. Too much theory, too little practical > use. In general, theory does not bring nothing without practical use. You misunderstood. Only mentioned that using minibuffer input without declaring the enclosing function a command, does not make the function non-interactive to the user. It is theory that people would know as part of their formal education. Experience in other languages and areas should help one go through the emacs code on their own. We are not there yet. > What is (interactive) is not same as "interactive" as in English > language. > > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ >