From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Indentation with spaces Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:37:16 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87fskezg7s.fsf@dataswamp.org> <1nSa0QRUilv-1bDwO14iTktsVVvkGK5Z4YmCRUQy2VEl-cydxtJo6_zDbkla_RGCnybukiWdu9YZaHdqGYOj9wsZArEK2AhrHk_ubYBrBYs=@protonmail.com> <87y1y4ke0c.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22967"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 11 06:38:58 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nzstm-0005p6-Gn for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:38:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34172 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzstl-0001JP-0D for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 00:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34950) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzssF-0001J3-8c for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 00:37:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:49127) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzssC-000805-W5 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 00:37:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1654922236; bh=MhZX+5lXH6o8mx1/JewStlOR9iLlXZJqM2ZkNbeQcNM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=YMq7vybfS+Wf6j5unXRbB61XmeOPf31rH137lz16ijNj24/xAXp35voJqwMInTXYX 39R7OPMTgOWHkOb7UAsvoW+UpBvO/Xy4kFj1hoEvA0j5tc8NuwP3afPZ50fZHHWwMb hBqFXi9Vd4K8lzWsFBsChEHogfxGl3bjSZ/iQPBs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs06.server.lan [172.19.170.174]) (via HTTP); Sat, 11 Jun 2022 06:37:16 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87y1y4ke0c.fsf@dataswamp.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lh1+diCa32IgLU1dkL1J3Cv8Q/9+1hWYGzkI3NILD7NLle7deUpZAZ3j4mtf+06wv+4qy S/qz5uPXlfy1CDhdlI2sFPEpzYK2okMl1Me9vUnPt7rbrEu02zYY23h1V8AXGTC0QFL97Xdyr7Lz lFfDuzTuaFqQixljn15++FMyXKp8OrLoX2Li4tHnY378ay3DNsfdLQjwZvBvTjb+jwMjyAQD3nHa xRLIVTlNUNg+hkehuPvLhzPaZUdaHK5PbB839KVCGtFj9BciqaetxzjwqvYJkXELCueLlfJwrfIV mI= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:k56dBx7tGeQ=:KnqRT+K/Yda2Chf43d//l3 OYBihHSpzV4JHT0g0dc+RslHIbxcMTM0mw5ejQBPq4Z5TuGhc7VjXYBidoMM1tEShQUjEtr+b 6pQIDiA3I1y03Swq4vk4JY+9wYx32fcgkKiFDB/GdvE+NFuKzCJ7yABzi9yI83dhDn0h6wHi9 K/o9zN1dCXrSf260pZajqiZxx/Jn2knLfUSCnMHR4hoXYsZGDOXsInqVuf4xdHs1/0akoAxs3 XmyBHglR3QxKT9Ne7pDrlCR9BnUbTOt51oCUzIc6plj/qt/XpUm4DFApFxXw8oL11/dY3ZL4A Tgp/Wcjbjun/Q5T18T+XyfoX557R3HAncF60YrfJRl6JJue4cdEuu56+kzWXSDGS4jUdk7xZa QW3y3OVBliOgsakIuCRtR5jp5uVQNa1CT3I/GiOGcJDpPZeDoD4s4KJIh2noBUDcknZr4/+Z7 dAHdV6FGFG308sBU/NCW89mYQBuRCKD/EqefGKEQpQL5qwl9op79EaBHqZ6jj6xHnw0u0U5bC K1+EfDOaezJTZivoHt62jvsA2WTmiVKsRSZuDUJNhpFeGT+DrPCCTjJrgLXRFaqPdrnMcd0bE gb0N2l67z+VVgvlAEfDz4/iZXGpKwLajnbo2b2k5Ox14TKP6X/PVqizdp6+YJbV4sgwQ8zJ6M FyIzhQBq7Ir3L2mAZPrQ7OCzOZzxqYFRHJumkJg3DSwtz5G/tAZizWp3Ju/aQpU2YYnc5h8OX VB4GBzyZ42HZ1tLiDtdjdQHMxFeMYlWGy+IcvH65BTZSvLw6Bc2y5VfuM3ccorY8efiiO8Pc Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.20; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:137656 Archived-At: > Sent: Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:29 PM > From: "Emanuel Berg" > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Indentation with spaces > > goncholden wrote: > > > Python is garbage as far as I am concerned. > > It doesn't look or feel cool like Lisp but development is > super-fast. I think an experienced Lisp programmer writes the > typical program in slightly more time than a Python > novice does. > > It's the langauge itself, but also all the resources on the > web and everywhere else including source, Q&As, books, you > name it ... because of its popularity. > > I think for these and other reasons it's better than shell > scripts (it's interactive, or can be) and it's much less of > a learning curve (and again faster development) compared to > Perl and other comparable languages for comparable > applications and use cases that I know of. Particularly at universities where the pressure is completion of the work rather than the algorithms themselves. At very serious level, I prefer that a program pushes itself as far as it can, even with errors, but completes. That is actually a far better design as far as languages are concerned. The problem I see, is that many who have used python as their first language is also their last, with some expecting their experience should spill over to other languages. > Lisp is cooler, looks better and might be more powerful in > terms of the language's expressiveness, other than those things > (which are important, no doubt) I think Python would win most > other Progralympic disciplines vs Lisp ... TBH! Python is slow and does not scale for large projects, so I discard it. I rather not see implementations in Python, except as a simple improvement on scripting. Although I would prefer the removal of strict requirements. Delving through an analysis of algorithms one would find that grouping braces are indeed needed, as not doing so does produce ambiguities that cannot be resolved. With conditions, code becomes an indentation mess. And you cannot always split up an algorithm in situations when doing so would result in an increase in algorithmic complexity. > > The designers thought it would be neat to give semantic > > meaning to whitespace. Why on earth would they give semantic > > meaning to something that cannot be seen? Who thought that > > was a good idea? > > It makes the code uniform from person to person in a way that > makes sense (in one particular "sense", the enforced one, but > still) - there are advantages with this both reading, writing > and understanding - advantages related not the least to what > I just mentioned, Python's one killer advantage, the > development speed. > Trust me, I wrote a Python bot which is employed as we speak > working well and not crashing, and I did this very fast > knowing nothing about Python and even less about IRC. It just > happens with Python ... somehow. That is fine. But I get frustrated by many who use python for whatever they do. Have seen implementations where building from source requires extremely experienced developers. Because you end up with dependencies that have no end. See for instance ObsPy. I know many programming in Python that find it so enjoyable that they feel inhibited when working with other programming frameworks. Universities, particularly science and mathematics departments frustrate me too much these days. > https://dataswamp.org/~incal/#sth > > -- > underground experts united > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > >