From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: outline-minor-mode and org-mode capabilities for programming languages Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:52:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87zgx3zu6e.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18201"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 10 14:54:27 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lg5QX-0004Ff-87 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 10 May 2021 14:54:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60112 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lg5QV-0004da-Uz for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:129664 Archived-At: =2D-------------------- Christopher Dimech General Administrator - Naiad Informatics - GNU Project (Geocomputation) - Geophysical Simulation - Geological Subsurface Mapping - Disaster Preparedness and Mitigation - Natural Resource Exploration and Production - Free Software Advocacy > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 11:43 PM > From: "Jean Louis" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: Re: outline-minor-mode and org-mode capabilities for programmin= g languages > > * Christopher Dimech [2021-05-10 13:01]: > > > I don't believe Org mode is solution for everything. In my Hyperscop= e > > > system and also Website Revision System specific system, I have no > > > limitation on what mode or text processor to use. > > > > No, only when one wants org-like features. The plan should be that > > outline-minor-mode handles them, which you have outlined. > > Literate programming is descriptional programming. It is just a matter > of marking specific parts of text to be descriptions and specific > parts to be program code. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literate_programming#Example > > By using text pre-processors one can easily do literate > programming. And I would say it is useful especially if other people > are to learn from the code. We do that as human too little, and thus > benefit too little from each other. > > How about instead of embedding code in the text, to embed text in the > code? Originally I had bought in the idea of Knuth and others, but did not buy o= n their results with literate programming. What I find valuable is the the develo= pment of protowriting that communicates limited information. They maybe a pars= er that goes through the to obtain a more literate translation. > In the new GNU Hyperbole package there is simple alias function that > creates a button like: > > (defal 'my-tag 'my-function) > > then any button in the text shown as: > > would be activated with M-RET and Emacs > would jump to the corresponding location. > > Now if we change the delimiters to be ( and ) we can then define: > > (defal 'defun 'jump-to-defun-literate-programming-index) > > Which would then make the first line of the below a button, or hyperlink= : > > (defun something (and more here) > more) > > Emacs has a built-in literate programming features as `C-h f' on the > function brings us to the documentation source. But what if we want to > elaborate the function and make it somewhat better, like Knuth's work, > maybe we want to elaborate it in any markup like TeX or LateX or > Markdown, or in special file, database node, or remote URL? > > That is where embedding text into the code comes in. There need not be > visible text in the code, but one could click and get the same > function elaborated with the markup source, markup result such as PDF, > and one could jump back to the code. The strategy of hiding is good. But I promote the idea of having separate files. Documentation in code will be limited, more elaborate schemes for documunetation on a separate file. Most times the code is the place to ch= eck things. > > > Org mode IS bloated. It has everything what one needs and much more > > > what I don't need. It is based on Outline mode and thus I like often > > > invoking Outline mode as that satisfies basic needs without fiddling > > > with Org mode keybindings and whatever other additional not necessar= y > > > functions. Surely I do use Org mode, but when it is needed. > > > > Isee that org-mode should not have handled programming languages. Tha= t > > should have been a new programming major mode for multi-language codin= g. > > > > I much like the original idea of org-mode and keeping close to that. > > Org mode is derivate from Outline mode. > > > > We have all function well described, indexed, findable, locatable, > > > usable in programming, we have it all, but IMHO integration is not > > > adequate for my standard. I have expected more of computing in 21st > > > century. > > > > Welcome to the club of forward thinking. There is so much work to do > > and so much planning. I have agreed with Eric Raymond when he said th= at > > even an idiot can code. > > Hahahhha. You know people laugh when they find some truth... > > > > How about tag based programming? Just think what you want to do, and > > > other tags appear. Like STRING --- CUT, FIRST PART, LAST PART, FIND > > > ANYWHERE IN THE STRING, SPLIT, CONVERT TO LIST, CHARS, or LIST -- > > > REMOVE DUPLICATES, REVERSE etc. Tags could be shown on screen, user > > > just clicks on it and decides relations, something similar to > > > https://scratch.mit.edu -- where children program animations. More > > > literate, more meanings, just ideas and intentions that result in a > > > program. > > > > Too much literate and you loose conciseness. As in mathematics, if > > things become too literate you would not be able to see a proof you > > can understand in a few pages. A more mathematical approach to > > things would help in dramatic ways. > > Oh, yes I agree, that is quite different concept. We as humans have > the inborn unwillingness to think, though we think all the time, but > nobody is forcing us to make analysis and conclusions with some > quality. When it comes to making analysis, people will rather tend to > skip it, unless they are truly interested in the subject. > > In other words, don't make it too literate for illiterates. There has to be a background and foundation. For instance, magnetism is o= ne of those things that's just too difficult to understand, except through an elaborat= e education in physics. In computing, we have not arrived at that stage yet. > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > >