From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Morally equivalent Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 03:18:22 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87y1tfzhzm.fsf@undisclosedlocation.com> <877d0zfjqa.fsf@web.de> <87h703e445.fsf@web.de> <8735bne2d4.fsf@web.de> <87mt9vcltf.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31851"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 17 03:19:07 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1okEmZ-00089M-AB for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 03:19:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47332 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okEmY-00008h-85 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 21:19:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60638) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okElt-000079-Tv for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 21:18:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:57761) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okEls-0007fI-2H for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 21:18:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665969502; bh=fdVyB8Xu/Gfud2ZhtE2RaXVBkxOR0xnEwPhBN2nlGeU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=esvkfQjySrsP67J1MdcwkD+d4AwMYFGB6+v/RKbkC2YulJh6lCzEeQgjZlDkO+Eh2 3yYHQgMVJ2zGmXW8quFNU06V4spND027ioQA0q4oNR1f+4yZW8e3K8I01wDIJprKNc 9oyFAkbX7gI+XuWIxp6j0didbzM/Jc5r8wXuwGJM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs10.server.lan [172.19.170.178]) (via HTTP); Mon, 17 Oct 2022 03:18:22 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87mt9vcltf.fsf@web.de> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:k0vtTTCKlj75BY9q1JYy00dYENPHoMp6AlbCmMzkSuq4xtOZgwi6pTD3P7fX2/jLYXRTP 4rdyLU+ofgYCEYn3Gya/1ZFGD6C3lM2UkRWq0dqVne2oPM/ZO5TDs2jMyCiPZbHymvVB7+qhE9ad pjxf4CsnPkc0duhjje/4WFlo2iSe/9Kea4tRKzB6aSLFtNARJsplpsy6fCJIs1rUrwqwKxk5qORD MIiDrlEMptTG0GaTt4r11UXjbrruHisy+0u2T9IYcEgJdy7R7tmBhbMwfGa9Ga7Cqws9qmRLe633 sI= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GdcthYLzQLI=:bwQ4klVqvbK+9VXeQz0f4y 8gdRXzjhPoJqrOyBIPWxtGeJlh6u1POlPKHlm15cTCwvHPNsbSwlfor7dVaw4PWmdjbxSHXRU EBi6rHp3u4ObU6gGhGkRRs+cR7i9DkE4Z02vX8JtKt3fevLbE1Zu03sYEE9eYjpiDq5hGYtKw htxNMXI/2Qm6WpQic9mmRbtheJoZxlaelhErCGgdwXGkGlqdJu8LXWyT9lG71aTDHQTA5Yo+I SopR6INkvWuJvpi8mss8ySNIyUNBgj2kzofu25mu5mVoGn8RuNXYC2muWJloJyuyVtDIVMBRf 23leROuaEGbFmaOgA0o2JuyWo0tibUPy2JMPMdxa0DC4QpWPHB5cQFASDB562fDFJUiTipSde 9xdYAFwQs0vK1nB2TCz5UvpNe/QrhXNwiUDliZ4/4+VF0MCbGHWDRwt5a0Um14Iy8fusYuayk rrvmuicpIMXbUZiFeASBU9szQOejfMOXSRaHQkqxLjy3hrRqSOU7lEetHnw7ijEHJITzqgJxN M3MytSrLP9CyEoXob/lCzFmLsM/xCjdIqvehXjCIrGT+Y3n23Alwnl3I4vjy0D/vYia4a954X vPnW/yLqNN3VU+hfhbPuig98a6TMv69hxrgNoZsSIPIO5cr+QgU8ofIje2EFZU6kl6iDcpOCQ RV/LIoAS7NJynBfxlArjYKrj0e/wUvdlNRFb516P6iBDXXtmIGlw+VyclHVztbGrZPuPkcXtz D5wJwpKWWfCPPfPktf1N9gIkkVipGB590eu+XV8JFveOnMRdPIKZJwPG5KA+z3c/AUUP/WsV Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.20; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:140046 Archived-At: > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2022 at 12:53 PM > From: "Michael Heerdegen" > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Morally equivalent > > Christopher Dimech writes: > > > Right. But I would say that the easiest thing is to write better > > documentation (in source) as you are writing the code. At least that > > part should be good. The source documentation is the biggest strength > > of this system. > > Sounds excellent in theory. In reality lots of people are not good at > writing good documentation. Or don't want to. Or hate it. > Although everybody knows that they _should_ do exactly what you > describe. The problem is not that they don't know. That happened many times at work too. We all had to go look at the code eventually. And had various projects where rewriting was faster than understanding the code. Have also seen wrappers on wrappers on wrappers that ultimately re-used old code from 1969. Absolutely terrible. This was at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Eventually got fed up of all that and show no respect towards national labs. > > The documentation is getting longer and longer. > > IME the documentation gets longer approx. in the same rate that Emacs > grows. And it still does grow. Selective reading is not prohibited, as > is selective familiarization with Emacs. Documentation is also quite > good, on average, and also partly redundant, so you even have the luxury > to choose between several paths. The hard part in mastering Emacs is > Emacs, not its documentation. People do it nonetheless because it's > worth it. Others don't because it's not worth it for them. > > Michael. The emacs internals are quite hard. As are the internals of texinfo. Selective reading is hard because there are lack of tools and techniques to automate reliably. Ideally, people would not have to read the Lisp Manual, but be able to get what they need selectively.