german quotes and mule

german quotes and mule

[M G Berberich]

Hello,

using mule-ucs for editing UTF-8 encoded files I have a problem. Emacs
does not use the existing glyphs from the normal font but substitutes
some from other fonts, that are far too big and too wide. Unfortunaly
this happens with german quotationmarks and the ellipsis, characters I
need quite often.

(please see <http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/~berberic/emacs-utf-8.png>)

I'm using emacs-snapshot from 20061106 

  GNU Emacs 23.0.0.1
  Copyright (C) 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

	MfG
	bmg

btw: Why is conversion to unicode so slow/difficult for emacsen? 
-- 
"Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
 sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!"          | berberic@fmi.uni-passau.de
(SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg)  | www.fmi.uni-passau.de/~berberic

Re: german quotes and mule

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 08.01.2007 um 21:56 schrieb M G Berberich:

> using mule-ucs for editing UTF-8 encoded files I have a problem.

Why do you use mule-ucs? GNU Emacs 23, or Unicode Emacs (23), can  
handle UTF-8 natively ...

Just make sure that your environment contains LC_CTYPE or LANG  
defined à la "de_DE.UTF-8" (check the locales your system supports)  
and everything works. Well, you need to have a good font. Or you can  
try to update to a more recent version with the font-backend, enable  
this at configuration time, and it will give you fontsets. I did not  
come to this, recently ...

--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen

   Pete

Patriotismus ist die Überzeugung, dass unser Vaterland allen anderen  
Ländern überlegen ist, weil wir darin geboren wurden.
                                         (George Bernard Shaw)

Re: german quotes and mule

[M G Berberich]

Hello,

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 22:56:59 +0100, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> wrote:
>
> Am 08.01.2007 um 21:56 schrieb M G Berberich:
>
>> using mule-ucs for editing UTF-8 encoded files I have a problem.
>
> Why do you use mule-ucs? GNU Emacs 23, or Unicode Emacs (23), can  
> handle UTF-8 natively ...

Oh, seems I'm not using mule-ucs, only mule -- I mixed this up. 

> Just make sure that your environment contains LC_CTYPE or LANG
> defined à la "de_DE.UTF-8" (check the locales your system supports)
> and everything works. 

I have done this and it's not working.

> Well, you need to have a good font. 

I'm using Bistream vera Sans Mono, which has german quotation-marks.

> Or you can try to update to a more recent version with the
> font-backend, enable this at configuration time, and it will give
> you fontsets. I did not come to this, recently ...

I have font-backend which gives me subpixel-hinted glyphs for my
normal font, but the german quotation-marks are from some other
bitmap-fonts (see
<http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/~berberic/emacs-utf-8.png>).

	MfG
	bmg

-- 
Artikel 3 und 12a des Grundgesetzes  kurz  | M G Berberich
zusammengefaßt: Männer  und  Frauen  sind  | berberic@fmi.uni-passau.de
gleichberechtigt, ausgenommen Männer, die  |
müssen zur Bundeswehr.                     | http://www.uni-passau.de/~berberic

Re: german quotes and mule

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 09.01.2007 um 13:29 schrieb M G Berberich:

> Oh, seems I'm not using mule-ucs, only mule -- I mixed this up.

How is it when you launch Unicode Emacs 23 with -Q, i.e. no  
initialisation files? I don't see in *Messages* any hints of any mule  
– and it simply works.

BTW, I am using Lucida Sans-Typewriter from Java.

--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen

   Pete

The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new  
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..."
                                       Isaac Asimov

Re: german quotes and mule

[M G Berberich]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 21:48:58 +0100, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> wrote:
>
> Am 09.01.2007 um 13:29 schrieb M G Berberich:
>
>> Oh, seems I'm not using mule-ucs, only mule -- I mixed this up.
>
> How is it when you launch Unicode Emacs 23 with -Q, i.e. no  
> initialisation files? 

If I launch my emacs with »-Q« it is exactly the same.
Your emacs display »„“‚‘…« O.K.?

> I don't see in *Messages* any hints of any mule  
> – and it simply works.

I have a »Options« -> »Mule (Multilingual Environment)« Menu in
my emacs, so I suppose I have mule. There are also 
mule-cmds.elc, mule-conf.el, mule-diag.elc, mule.elc, mule-util.elc
in /usr/share/emacs/23.0.0/lisp/international/mule.

	MfG
	bmg

-- 
"Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
 sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!"          | berberic@fmi.uni-passau.de
(SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg)  | www.fmi.uni-passau.de/~berberic

Re: german quotes and mule

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 09.01.2007 um 22:50 schrieb M G Berberich:

>> How is it when you launch Unicode Emacs 23 with -Q, i.e. no
>> initialisation files?
>
> If I launch my emacs with »-Q« it is exactly the same.
> Your emacs display »„“‚‘…« O.K.?

Yes. It happens for a few Unicode fonts right.

>
>> I don't see in *Messages* any hints of any mule
>> – and it simply works.
>
> I have a »Options« -> »Mule (Multilingual Environment)« Menu in
> my emacs, so I suppose I have mule. There are also
> mule-cmds.elc, mule-conf.el, mule-diag.elc, mule.elc, mule-util.elc
> in /usr/share/emacs/23.0.0/lisp/international/mule.

Well, the menu's title is just its title, going back to GNU Emacs 20.  
Parts of MULE are probably really used when you need to convert a  
file or when you type C-u C-x = on some character ...

I get for example:

         character: „ (8222, #o20036, #x201e)
preferred charset: iso-8859-13 (ISO/IEC 8859/13)
        code point: 0xA5
            syntax: . 	which means: punctuation
       buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x9E
         file code: #xE2 #x80 #x9E (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
           display: by this font (glyph code)
      -B&H-LucidaTypewriter-Medium-R-Normal-Sans-10-100-75-75-M-60- 
ISO10646-1 (#x201E)

        character: “ (8220, #o20034, #x201c)
preferred charset: iso-8859-13 (ISO/IEC 8859/13)
        code point: 0xB4
            syntax: . 	which means: punctuation
          category: c:Chinese h:Korean j:Japanese
       buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x9C
         file code: #xE2 #x80 #x9C (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
           display: by this font (glyph code)
      -B&H-LucidaTypewriter-Medium-R-Normal-Sans-10-100-75-75-M-60- 
ISO10646-1 (#x201C)


--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen

   Pete

If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

Re: german quotes and mule

[Reiner Steib]

On Mon, Jan 08 2007, M G Berberich wrote:

> Emacs does not use the existing glyphs from the normal font but
> substitutes some from other fonts, that are far too big and too
> wide. 
[...]
> (please see <http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/~berberic/emacs-utf-8.png>)

Show us the output of M-x describe-cahr RET on both, the correct and
"too big" characters.

Do the chars show up nicely if you start Emacs with...
  emacs -Q -font "-misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--14*-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1"
... (or similar).  (This should work for Emacs <= 22, not sure about 23.)

> I'm using emacs-snapshot from 20061106 
>   GNU Emacs 23.0.0.1

Please don't ask about unreleased version on comp.emacs or
gnu.emacs.help.  Follow the advice in INSTALL.CVS instead:

,----[ INSTALL.CVS ]
| Questions, requests, and bug reports about the CVS versions of Emacs
| should be sent to emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org rather than gnu.emacs.help
| or gnu.emacs.bug.  Ideally, use M-x report-emacs-bug RET which will
| send it to the proper place.
`----

> btw: Why is conversion to unicode so slow/difficult for emacsen? 

I don't know about the implementation side, but as a user I don't have
any problems WRT unicode on Emacs 22 (CVS, pretest).  Emacs 23
(unicode branch) uses Unicode internally, so it's Unicode support
should be improved further compared to 22.  (The unicode branch will
become the trunk after Emacs is released.)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: german quotes and mule

[M G Berberich]

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007, Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 08 2007, M G Berberich wrote:
>
>> Emacs does not use the existing glyphs from the normal font but
>> substitutes some from other fonts, that are far too big and too
>> wide. 
> [...]
>> (please see <http://www.forwiss.uni-passau.de/~berberic/emacs-utf-8.png>)
>
> Show us the output of M-x describe-cahr RET on both, the correct and
> "too big" characters.

Correct char:
        character: x (120, #o170, #x78)
preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
       code point: 0x78
           syntax: w 	which means: word
         category: a:ASCII l:Latin r:Japanese roman
      buffer code: #x78
        file code: not encodable by coding system utf-8
          display: by this font (glyph code)
     bitstream vera sans mono:pixelsize=11:foundry=bitstream:weight=medium:
			slant=r:width=normal (#x5B)

Too big characters:
        character: “ (8220, #o20034, #x201c)
preferred charset: iso-8859-13 (ISO/IEC 8859/13)
       code point: 0xB4
           syntax: . 	which means: punctuation
         category: c:Chinese h:Korean j:Japanese
      buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x9C
        file code: #xE2 #x80 #x9C (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
          display: by this font (glyph code)
     -ISAS-Song ti-Medium-R-Normal--16-160-72-72-c-160-GB2312.1980-0 (#x2130)

        character: ‘ (8216, #o20030, #x2018)
preferred charset: iso-8859-7 (ISO/IEC 8859/7)
       code point: 0xA1
           syntax: . 	which means: punctuation
         category: c:Chinese h:Korean j:Japanese
      buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x98
        file code: #xE2 #x80 #x98 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
          display: by this font (glyph code)
     -Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--14-130-75-75-C-70-ISO10646-1 (#x2018)

        character: … (8230, #o20046, #x2026)
preferred charset: chinese-gb2312 (GB2312 Chinese simplified: ISO-IR-58)
       code point: 0x212D
           syntax: _ 	which means: symbol
         category: c:Chinese h:Korean j:Japanese
      buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #xA6
        file code: #xE2 #x80 #xA6 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
          display: by this font (glyph code)
     -Misc-Fixed-Medium-R-Normal--14-130-75-75-C-70-ISO10646-1 (#x2026)


> Do the chars show up nicely if you start Emacs with...
>   emacs -Q -font "-misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--14*-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1"
> ... (or similar).  (This should work for Emacs <= 22, not sure about 23.)

I have to specify "--disable-font-backend" to make it accept
X-font-descriptions, then it works. 

So this might mean it's a problem with the font-backend on the other
hand emacs seems to thinks that german quotation-marks are "c:Chinese
h:Korean j:Japanese" characters and are to be found in iso-8859-13
resp. iso-8859-7 and the ellipsis in chinese-gb2312.

>> I'm using emacs-snapshot from 20061106 
>>   GNU Emacs 23.0.0.1
>
> Please don't ask about unreleased version on comp.emacs or
> gnu.emacs.help.  Follow the advice in INSTALL.CVS instead:

Sorry. 

	MfG
	bmg

-- 
"Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
 sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!"          | berberic@fmi.uni-passau.de
(SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg)  | www.fmi.uni-passau.de/~berberic

Re: german quotes and mule

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 11.01.2007 um 10:38 schrieb M G Berberich:

> I have to specify "--disable-font-backend" to make it accept
> X-font-descriptions, then it works.

I'd make a bug report from the Help menu and try to find out with the  
developers where the error is. Besides, have you tried to set up a  
fontset?

>
> on the other hand emacs seems to thinks that german quotation-marks  
> are "c:Chinese
> h:Korean j:Japanese" characters and are to be found in iso-8859-13
> resp. iso-8859-7 and the ellipsis in chinese-gb2312.

Yes, these descriptions are very funny! I wonder which generator  
generates them on which random basis ...

--
Mit friedvollen Grüßen

   Pete

Die Zeit wird kommen, da unsere Nachkommen sich wundern werden, wie  
wir so wunderbare Dinge einfach gewusst haben konnten.
                         (Ein Optimist nach Lucius Annæus Seneca)