From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: uzibalqa Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Pressing ? does not allow window scrolling through the list of info commands Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 20:07:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83bkgoguea.fsf@gnu.org> <837crcgra6.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt07ee2n.fsf@gnu.org> <83cz13ecix.fsf@gnu.org> <83bkgneby0.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19509"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 07 22:08:57 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qHrlB-0004tb-LO for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 07 Jul 2023 22:08:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qHrkN-0000kf-99; Fri, 07 Jul 2023 16:08:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qHrkK-0000it-VN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Jul 2023 16:08:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.132]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qHrkH-00009f-8X; Fri, 07 Jul 2023 16:08:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1688760477; x=1689019677; bh=TCkvxd0BohXYKO1MalSi7hMeF4tYytsMs/M8/0EBmGU=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=TcnG/196gsoe3Xb6Z4JLhazf12n/EI1AcXibiNRWoZZZUTjNgWIdAsxDeVA8XeDeX 90Iyi0/51+MUcssvKjB6mkHrKafCRcguQjd677q78NjU/p7HBNKtEgsaIA8yDNlFlI X/DcOXntuLc/pFrt8jaGOUMtxr0PeFzkBQl3MrpciOaR/wX37Xb9dzVkRj04lMgjX+ 5R4lhdJTEEW1PqTiJS9h8nOuO6OXZWYfRaR0kdWiU0dHrTeIiHIEvWxfWFmdMWHsHV BkUTWbGzvxmDHhfU7OzA2QCGTtTvuwn2eWnYrnKXWbinCuXhKJeCv9dnVJkPIkm7sZ MeeGTk6gYWlYQ== In-Reply-To: <83bkgneby0.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.40.132; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-40132.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:144197 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, July 8th, 2023 at 7:52 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2023 22:40:06 +0300 > > From: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org > >=20 > > > From: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com > > > Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 02:34:56 +0700 > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > >=20 > > > On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 02:06, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote: > > >=20 > > > > > =E2=80=98help-mode-map=E2=80=99 has =E2=80=98q=E2=80=99 bound to = =E2=80=98quit-window=E2=80=99 and that=E2=80=99s the minimal > > > > > fuss way to return from the help window. It also would help build > > > > > habits that work with a wide set of buffers in Emacs. > > > >=20 > > > > And how will we tell the user that 'q' quits? In the echo-area, > > > > perhaps? > > >=20 > > > Echo area, or header line, or mode line, whatever. > >=20 > > Which is what we do now about SPC, and that is deemed not good enough. > > How is showing 'q' there suddenly better? > >=20 > > > > > As it is, the user has to build three sets of habits [=E2=80= =A6] > > > >=20 > > > > You exaggerate the problem. A typical user of computers these days > > > > needs much more than 3 sets of habits for similar actions. And > > > > scrolling with SPC in Emacs is quite a widely-used paradigm. > > >=20 > > > Users who know about scrolling with Space also expect Shift+Space to > > > scroll in reverse. Users also really expect to be able to scroll by > > > single lines. Help that hides as soon as you try to scroll it is not > > > very helpful. > >=20 > > I disagree. >=20 >=20 > As an aside, this is a typical Emacs incarnation of "the road to hell > is paved with good intentions": we take an obscure minor feature that > 5 min ago no one even knew it existed and which bothered no one,=20 It bothered me but somehow that became irrelevant. He has been making good points which I agree with. > and suddenly it is a huge usability issue, worthy of inventing novel ways > of user interactions, new faces, new header-line displays (which, btw, > steal one screen line used for precious Help display), and whatnot. > And then we are surprised that Emacs doesn't become more stable as the > years go by. >=20 > Will we ever learn? It is not huge (although can be huge for a newbie), but these small things = (mainly frozen=20 by what old timers are used to) seem to get much opposition from approval a= nd completion. We never learn because we get stuck with the old ways.