From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Alexandre Oberlin" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Why is it not possible to use "nil" any more in init files ? Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:07:39 +0100 Organization: http://www.migo.info Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1416928229 22781 80.91.229.3 (25 Nov 2014 15:10:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:10:29 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 25 16:10:22 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XtHl0-0004pe-08 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2014 16:10:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57983 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XtHkz-0000CJ-Bf for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:10:21 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!cleanfeed1-a.proxad.net!nnrp5-1.free.fr!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Opera Mail/12.16 (Linux) Original-Lines: 156 Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2014 16:07:45 CET Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.215.210.216 Original-X-Trace: 1416928065 news-3.free.fr 2876 80.215.210.216:47509 Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:208886 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:101165 Archived-At: Thanks Phillip for your answer. You wrote: >> From my perspective, most people who write > (hated-mode nil) > are likely to be able to work out what is happening, while someone who= > accidentally writes > (wanted-mode) > and later > (wanted-mode) > has a more pernicuous problem. So the toggling functions have been broken too!? Anyway I=E2=80=99d say = most such = users don=E2=80=99t write, they just click/touch. Now do you mean that for emacs developers too, unlearned user mistakes = driven interfacing has become the guiding principle? I use *n?x systems = = because I preferred to learn a few things from the start and then know = what happens and get what I want. Now this is more and more difficult as= = the (supposed) average behaviour of occasional users rules (and constant= ly = changes, as well as its perception by new developers). Users who need to= = work productively are getting nervous because they don=E2=80=99t have ti= me to = spend playing with their configurations at each new release of any piece= = of software. Breaking backward compatibility had always been a NONO, eve= n = at Microsoft. IMHO this "intuitive" paradigm is OK for phones/tablets, at least if som= e = consensus can be found. And we all know that casual users will more and = = more use phones/tablets, not computers any more. As for the more motivat= ed = users, they should rather be helped with some good principles and = tutorials, and not the developers adapt to their initial shortcomings. Cheers, Alexandre On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 14:50:22 +0100, Phillip Lord = wrote: > > Clearly, if the interface has changed it runs the risk of breaking som= e > statements which were previously fulfilling the programmers intent. > This, of course, is irritating for those affected, but that doesn't ma= ke > it wrong. > >> From my perspective, most people who write > > (hated-mode nil) > > are likely to be able to work out what is happening, while someone who= > accidentally writes > > (wanted-mode) > > and later > > (wanted-mode) > > has a more pernicuous problem. > > I always used > > (hated-mode 0) > > which seems to be more intuitive than passing nil. Perhaps this is why= > the change did not irritate me. > > > Alexandre Oberlin writes: > >> Thanks Stefan for this explanation. So IIUC that trick broke some = >> correct >> .emacs in order to magically fix some broken ones? >> >> Alexandre >> >> >> On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 15:37:04 +0100, Stefan Monnier = >> >> wrote: >> >>>> I know that departing from proven approaches for no sensible reason= = >>>> is top >>>> of the art but is there any kind of other rationale to make the thi= ng = >>>> not >>>> backward-compatible? >>> >>> Of course, there's a reason: All minor modes since Emacs-23 (IIRC) >>> should turn themselves ON when called with a nil argument, so you do= n't >>> need turn-on-FOO-mode and you can just say: >>> >>> (add-hook 'bar-mode-hook 'foo-mode) >>> >>> The better part of this incompatible change is that it silently *fix= ed* >>> many people's .emacs since many people already used: >>> >>> (add-hook 'bar-mode-hook 'foo-mode) >>> >>> without realizing that this could actually turn the mode OFF in >>> some cases. >>> >>> >>> Stefan >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> > --