From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Emacs on Aqua crippleware or is it just broken? Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:41:11 +0000 Organization: muc.de e.V. -- private internet access Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <39d9c156.0305042200.1639a252@posting.google.com> <39d9c156.0305060558.7cba26d9@posting.google.com> <060520031302215334%ajanta@no.spam> <39d9c156.0305070335.2808773d@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1052316471 14074 80.91.224.249 (7 May 2003 14:07:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:07:51 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 07 16:07:49 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19DPaG-0003eP-00 for ; Wed, 07 May 2003 16:07:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 19DPTN-0005g8-06 for gnu-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 May 2003 10:00:41 -0400 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!lmu.de!news.muc.de!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.sys.mac.apps Original-Lines: 135 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: acm.muc.de Original-X-Trace: marvin.muc.de 1052315432 8970 193.149.49.134 (7 May 2003 13:50:32 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: news-admin@muc.de Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 May 2003 13:50:32 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.5-20010409 ("One More Nightmare") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686)) Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:112889 comp.sys.mac.apps:360770 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+gnu-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:9384 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:9384 BK wrote on 7 May 2003 04:35:12 -0700: > Ajanta wrote in message > news:<060520031302215334%ajanta@no.spam>... > I had already explained my definition of crippleware and you will find > that it is in no way offending. Apart from the need to get attention > there is also the need to make the subject line short. > So instead of > "Emacs: Does the Aqua port have the following features left out > because the developer didn't have time to do it yet or are there any > fixes for the problems I have experienced?" > (I have done this sort of thing in an earlier life and almost never > got any replies to it) > one writes > "Is Emacs on Aqua crippleware or is it just broken?" > This fulfills both requirements, getting attention and being short. Er, BK, it may well do this, but it fails a third critical requirement, that of politeness. The terms "crippleware" and "broken" both have well-defined meanings in hacker circles, and they are derogatory. As somebody who's actively writing documentation, you knew this. Surely, you *must* have known this. Now, such a subject line coming from a frustrated newbie who's practically tearing his hair out, I think is understandable and forgiveable (though not everybody on this group would agree with me here). Coming from an experienced insider is something different. There seems a strong possibility that you were posting deliberately to annoy people. But let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you offended people accidentally. Look up the definitions of "crippleware" and "broken" in the jargon file [anybody got a URL for it?] (or the printed version, "The New Hacker's Dictionary" by Eric Raymond), then look at your subject line again, and understand where the offence came from. Then consider how you could have posted less offensively. For example, the subject line something like "Questions on Emacs key bindings on the Aqua version" would have been entirely inoffensive. > Anybody who reads the actual post can see that there is no flaming no > bashing, but a description of problems along with a question whether > or not the problem described is intentional ("feature") or broken > ("bug"). Well, it seemed to me to be somewhat arrogant, laying down the rules of how the program ought to work. But that's just my take. > This is important to know because if it is intentional then it would > be a complete waste of time trying to find a fix. And I perceive this latest paragraph to be a continuation of the arrogance. It sounds to me very like you are presuming to judge whether the implementor of the software is ignorant or stupid. > There is far too many posts on usenet where somebody reports a > problem, is told that the software in question hasn't implemented such > a feature, at least not yet, and then it goes on and on and on mocking > about it. If it's not there then it's not there and consequently there > is then no point trying to get "the bug fixed". Now, here you have failed to take into account the possibility that you had misunderstood the issues, and that there simply is no bug, therefore nothing to fix. > I am sorry if anyone who has been working on any of the various Emacs > Mac ports feels offended by my pragmatism. I certainly didn't mean to > cause offense. Now, although this looks like an apology, it isn't really an apology at all. What it says, in effect, is "sorry you're all so stupid to be offended by my perfectly OK post". I would respectfully suggest you rephrase it somewhat as follows: "I am sorry I offended people by my rather forthright post. I certainly didn't mean to cause offence". > If someone tells me: "Quitting is not yet implemented, for now you have > to use force quit or kill -9", then I call that a feature, albeit an > inconvenient feature, but you won't find me going on about it. I will > accept that it's not there and that is it, I'll proceed to the next > problem. Likewise, if you tell me "Weird, this should work, it works > for me", then I call that a bug, which is a lot better than if it's a > feature because many bugs have known fixes. Again, you won't find me > going on about it like "Look how bugridden this software is", no, all I > want is to find out is how to fix the bug. You might do well to consider that there might not have been a bug/feature at all, and the problem was your own misunderstanding. > In respect of the term "crippleware", again this is born out of > pragmatism. You won't find me going on about it like "Look how > crippled this software is", no, .... Wrong. That is precisely what you were going on about. > .... it means there are missing features which are present in other > versions of the same software. Very often this is done for marketing > reasons "cheaper or freeware version is crippled - full version costs > more". This suggestion, made in the context of Emacs, is possibly more offensive than anything else you've said up to now. The entire GNU system was born of idealism and is sustained by idealism largely as a reaction against what you describe. I suggest you start at and learn what is really driving projects like Emacs. And please don't tell me you were really talking about commercial software here. > However, it also applies to work in progress software if that work in > progress is not explicitly denoted as "beta software", which is another > way to describe missing features that haven't been included yet. > However, if the developer doesn't call it "beta software" it would > create more confusion then anything else if I was to call it > "betaware", so I choose the alternative "crippleware". Can you really be so naive as this? You'd do better if you realised that the software you're talking about is functional software of the highest grade, not "beta software", not "crippleware", and that the people who've implemented and maintained it are deserving of the highest respect. If there's something in Emacs you don't like, then change it to what you want, if you're capable enough. > rgds > bk -- Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) Email: aacm@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter (like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").