From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Didier Verna Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: How to improve the readability of (any) LISP or any highlevel functional language to the level of FORTH ? Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 11:18:51 +0100 Organization: EPITA Research and Development Laboratory Message-ID: References: <80ceeca0-1d32-47d1-ba96-feb4d9729c3a@v17g2000yqv.googlegroups.com> <87pqsgk8v9.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1294137725 16160 80.91.229.12 (4 Jan 2011 10:42:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:42:05 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 04 11:41:59 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa4Kz-00031g-8y for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 11:41:57 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55292 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pa4Kx-0008Ew-E1 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 05:41:55 -0500 Original-Newsgroups: comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.lisp,gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 40 Original-Distribution: world Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.enst.fr Original-X-Trace: news.enst.fr 1294136333 32464 137.194.160.24 (4 Jan 2011 10:18:53 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@enst.fr Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:18:53 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) XEmacs/21.5-b29 (linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEX3+/X19PKXTx2+imB3 HQCDMgVWBgDt7On3a/21AAACUUlEQVQ4jXWSwXKkIBCGcS+5au3B61Yj5hzIzNwN8AAM8AAO9lnj gdffBuNWqjbTU2Vhf/P/fwOynHN3FvteJ2ieAfYUsI61P4OmgOYnRfvM6glo/gvfSr9dm659YZlR UMl5OUGX863vqL+VAZpTwfotX/GxvrCtOYf+Au0vRCLk0a399wx2nVzEt6bvm7Vt2u8AnMDH1u/7 7SAHaPICoOO8ZglcbSXqBDMftZ5v8hK4vHUV5NzStAm9CVEK69zwobZcwdp1PaJwA+L87gDccF8L 2NYu98MyuBFnkOC888YdVlveJUQTcY5SBiu0x6roCABYArhAsIvQaKqCgAoiBUzxQ3g0QeNSQSan MCK9WkH+3uOhoJNVAsgHHQphHBDQNYMEr4r6kwj0Ay/E4gmseVMyf84YkwvegOMAIbLi9JvzvD/w iqCN5uC1BlGtdv5K8wqwDvhw5+NkeAUZ5J+8Y7wLDUY4Ps4AUDJ2frn1O9L/vUCnSApcFoVUfL9J E91E9o5zJSmflc3x+xUxgAuAwk+Ox3uxomhpk7ezC45c3pGOcyqg/wRhvDbGDT7xizRK0o0AU+QE /KINjKAnpZRUFwzOM2oDKOk9jDMdODcAw6KGxGj7PmhttRYJZwl4pyGVigQiWjxLe8sll6CQwKDp CjClgrXF4FHKaiV0KSSGiS7b+GS9KQoIBZgCU1nRa7AViEDlKzBlqQuvCloH2rypnqYaVECE5l3o E609enpdrarGf9l/PQ4FESeIYG2VzZpwgBJ/uNDXQGIy/QeKVbVLpoK/OiYNGc1SdfMAAAAASUVO RK5CYII= X-Face: %wLt.z4p1}H$r|8]x'S.9&0)p>b^eZ|J5p1Y{HJoO,#Ac1`B \gf%xS(J0.9uTW}*o_z8rLWzbU=; V"f^e7P3xU; Wg; SJ?`=c.:/m5yP+1_-xjd49&:uVu}$ Q%TY61,G[OJk{p2?z[w*\71m Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEVRBQDw8O3QrouIQg9v IwD6+vjq6OWeZC/u/WLlAAACYklEQVQ4jW2SzWvjMBDFh1jU5xTsc+uG+GossbqKSKzOXrDvSrF6 1Uoi8+/v+CPZLdkJxKDfvDfzZMO4VzVU9O/GI5WngjtYTgY/Dk9gEVSDd8+ANO44Vs9WdO5q758B udd+fp5BQ65Jnqf/KVpAPX8HQzUM41WizbdVUv+7VX2KDaafdy/YM1TVFyK2Xbn01w+rajy+MsxF C3ZejR4zxumzxFy2nZ19/R1gbE+2RfHupn/AOF0xJc25/Di76e+6QzU1MvBQ2ra93UHlxvk4n6II pSoOMvR+dGsON7rJ1V3CoDuwCL0/VmsO7x2FxoyCZxEQZL3tC5d58G2Ll6SzMCBROu9XwG7NCSgC 50l1LEVx9ttwoxnT+GFkluYjrkF2wHjBsOV9gPIrosy/nV+B0skoWSrZqZdffZLih98AU9IoLQEl +NdLDuxlV2ilBRTRhHDwLhXBHPx2V9JwrgrU8nQ7z29MiTuwynZciM5aX/lPYA8F9dLFio7u4kpA 22YHQtv4Vmau3ungq+C927eS+dAEJlFj9E3Dee93kPIBs4gIySYojbw0d6A1UkiLmLjhght93nMY 2TKeZZMwRoJJ3dwGeGyYzEnSZ4V9m7i4bQowEfMFQ5kx29gEubUgGBUxXPpwSDEcGgJktwKgtyaE VmXCzjYYCmw3BSdUKC4k50tnB/RF7AoAVmBmXCibEgEwwuyAkGDGQLkqDJWk4UYRUBvmYjlfTUFR q6F39Sij130JaC60WCVMAQOzbstJSYD8qWP5LUaSU5bF0pCC3JZhCpYJSwFd6GJlHvUANIyeSsF3 8Af3uDRfSikS3QAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Face: %8LV<}8Ilxs8]1D>sk/e9v2M8*{UD>6"Qe^R2B4FUPJ\0\Ia:~uPB2; *5,:b+/Dub@|J?Fz AsrCWXk|7hl:&d|P%&[E'U&v*#6`C"W'&urCcQX9^v-h}vW'E}-/v|{Jn&5>sX!t|duP0juYa'8&pH LJ~TvL*~Ni+Idu{o>V%.O}9]5#38!/kvOtKfXazi`eY}]I_~ X-Attribution: dvl X-Url: http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier X-Web: http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier X-Home-Page: http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier Cancel-Lock: sha1:MztOHXC4X06ArTbjUZnpwcKPNFI= Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!feed.ac-versailles.fr!uvsq.fr!jussieu.fr!news.enst.fr!not-for-mail Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu comp.lang.functional:69104 comp.lang.lisp:297236 gnu.emacs.help:183956 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:78159 Archived-At: Tim Harig wrote: > What hurts the LISP community far more is the zealotry of its members, > their insistance that LISP is the *only* tool for *every* job, and > their agressiveness in trying to push it off on to everybody else -- > whether everybody else happens want it or not. Whether this is > indicitive of the entire community or simply the result of those most > apparent, I cannot say; but, it leads to the overall impression that > the LISP community is narrowminded and neophobic. Who would want to be > part of such a community? Not sure which lispers you've been talking to. I don't see any more zealotry in the Lisp community than in any other one. I see, however, things like Racket in which Lispers put a lot of efforts learning about the cool stuff that comes from other languages and incorporating them into their Lisp dialect (static typing, contracts, to name a few). Is that narrowminded? Is it wrong to try to improve your preferred language instead of switching to another one? These are the Lispers you should talk to. About the "*only* tool for *every* job" thing, there is often a confusion between Lisp -- The Idea, and Lisp -- The Language(s). Lispers usually like Lisp for its extreme customizability, something that is closely related to Lisp -- The Idea (code is data, structural reflexivity, the Lisp macros etc.). However, no programming language is perfect, not even Lisp -- The Language(s). Common Lisp is far from perfect, it's not perfect to have a gazillion Scheme dialects, let alone Emacs Lisp. The other thing that puzzles me is why you would be annoyed by people trying to "push it off" on you. Maybe (just maybe ;-) I would try to push off Lisp -- The Idea on you, but I wouldn't dare to try to push off *any* language on you, because I don't know your background, your needs, your interests etc. If somebody does that on me, I just ignore them. -- Resistance is futile. You will be jazzimilated. Scientific site: http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier Music (Jazz) site: http://www.didierverna.com