what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

What has the face `message-separator' *really*
done for us?

See:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/message-mode-colors.png

The only thing I can think of are the three
dashes between the header and body parts of the
message. But they don't seem to be affected by
the face.

-- 
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http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Damien Collard]

On Sam, mar 16 2019, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> What has the face `message-separator' *really*
> done for us?

I do use that face :-)

(I have set it the same as `font-lock-comment-face`, trying to keep the
number of colors as low as possible).

> The only thing I can think of are the three
> dashes between the header and body parts of the
> message. But they don't seem to be affected by
> the face.

In my case it is affected by `message-separator` (message-mode set up by
Gnus; the separator is "--text follows this line--").

--
Damien Collard

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Damien Collard wrote:

> (I have set it the same as
> `font-lock-comment-face`, trying to keep the
> number of colors as low as possible).

Interesting, we have opposite approaches...

>> The only thing I can think of are the three
>> dashes between the header and body parts of
>> the message. But they don't seem to be
>> affected by the face.
>
> In my case it is affected by
> `message-separator` (message-mode set up by
> Gnus; the separator is "--text follows this
> line--").

"--text follows this line--" rings a bell, but
I haven't seen it in ages. Maybe it is
something I configured away ages ago...

Also, I don't have "message-separator". I do
have:

    message-form-letter-separator
    message-signature-separator
    message-unsent-separator

none of which I see around, when I examine
their values.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Damien Collard]

On Dim, mar 17 2019, Emanuel Berg wrote:

>> In my case it is affected by
>> `message-separator` (message-mode set up by
>> Gnus; the separator is "--text follows this
>> line--").
>
> "--text follows this line--" rings a bell, but
> I haven't seen it in ages. Maybe it is
> something I configured away ages ago...
>
> Also, I don't have "message-separator". I do
> have:
>
>     message-form-letter-separator
>     message-signature-separator
>     message-unsent-separator

Sorry, I meant that the face `message-separator` does affect the
(textual) message separator (which in my case is the default "--text
follows this line--"; controlled by `message-header-separator`).

-- 
Damien Collard

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Damien Collard wrote:

> Sorry, I meant that the face
> `message-separator` does affect the (textual)
> message separator (which in my case is the
> default "--text follows this line--";
> controlled by `message-header-separator`).

OK, first, thanks for your help!

I don't have `message-header-separator'.
But I do have `mail-header-separator' which
seems similar in purpose and effect


    Its value is "---"
    Original value was 
    "--text follows this line--"


Maybe this is why why the face
`message-separator' won't affect it?

But if so, then again what *does* it affect?

Is there a subtle difference between "mail" and
"message"? What is the correct
Emacs-world terminology?

I use the Message mode for Gmane, Usenet *and*
mail. This is how I open/compose a new, blank
message/mail:


(defun new-message (&optional force)
  (interactive "P")
  (message (format "%s" force))
  (if (or (not (eq major-mode 'message-mode)) force)
      (progn
        (unless (gnus-alive-p) (gnus))
        (gnus-post-news 'post "") )
    (message "Did nothing. Use C-u to force.") )) ; [1]


Versions:

    Gnus v5.13

    GNU Emacs 24.4.1
    (arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf, GTK+ Version
    3.14.5) of 2017-09-13 on mb-lxc-01,
    modified by Debian


[1] line 70 @ http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/emacs-init/gnus/gnus-my.el

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Damien Collard]

On Dim, mar 17 2019, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> I don't have `message-header-separator'.
> But I do have `mail-header-separator' which
> seems similar in purpose and effect

Ah, I got confused; `message-header-separator` is a leftover from an
experiment of mine... Indeed, as you say the variable is
`mail-header-separator`.

>
>
>     Its value is "---"
>     Original value was
>     "--text follows this line--"
>
>
> Maybe this is why why the face
> `message-separator' won't affect it?
>
> But if so, then again what *does* it affect?

Well, it seems to only be of effect when `mail-header-separator` has its
default value "--text follows this line--". I checked, and

- when it's the default separator, I can confirm that changing the face
  `message-separator` does change the separator's color.

- when I changed `mail-header-separator` to "---" (or anything different
  from the default), the face `message-separator` doesn't apply to it
  anymore!

So it's a bug.

> Versions:
>
>     Gnus v5.13
>
>     GNU Emacs 24.4.1
>     (arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf, GTK+ Version
>     3.14.5) of 2017-09-13 on mb-lxc-01,
>     modified by Debian

Gnus v5.13

GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.2.0, Carbon Version 158
AppKit 1671.2) [emacs-mac by Mitsuharu Yamamoto, installed via homebrew]

--
Damien Collard

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Damien Collard wrote:

> Well, it seems to only be of effect when
> `mail-header-separator` has its default value
> "--text follows this line--". I checked, and
>
> - when it's the default separator, I can
> confirm that changing the face
> `message-separator` does change the
> separator's color.
>
> - when I changed `mail-header-separator` to
> "---" (or anything different from the default),
> the face `message-separator` doesn't apply to
> it anymore!
>
> So it's a bug.

???

I have only one more question for you before
I submit the bug, how the <beep> did you ever
suspect it to work for one variable value, but
not for another?

Computers aren't like that!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

>> Well, it seems to only be of effect when
>> `mail-header-separator` has its default
>> value "--text follows this line--".
>> I checked, and [...]
>>
>> So it's a bug.
>
> ???
>
> I have only one more question for you before
> I submit the bug, how the <beep> did you ever
> suspect it to work for one variable value,
> but not for another?
>
> Computers aren't like that!

So now its done.

I used `report-emacs-bug' instead of
`gnus-bug'. I don't know if this was right or
wrong. Technically speaking, Message mode is
part of Gnus, written by
Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen and located in
/usr/share/emacs/24.4/lisp/gnus/message.el.

But Message mode is not only used by Gnus
people, but also by people with the poor taste
of using Rmail, the so-called "primary Emacs
mail-reader" according to RMS. [1]

So therefore I used `report-emacs-bug'.


PS. I hope no one takes offense from this
    little bubble :) All people mentioned have
    been CCd, as always. DS.


[1] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Rmail
    http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-09/msg00328.html

-- 
underground experts united
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Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Xavier Maillard]

Hello,

> But Message mode is not only used by Gnus
> people, but also by people with the poor taste
> of using Rmail, the so-called "primary Emacs
> mail-reader" according to RMS. [1]

I have tried many MUAs in the past and Rmail is just the perfect tool
for my needs ;)

I particularily like the simplicity and the fact it does not come with
many distractions. Thus, when reading my mails, I am really focusing
on that task: reading my mail ^^

++
-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Xavier Maillard wrote:

>> But Message mode is not only used by Gnus
>> people, but also by people with the poor
>> taste of using Rmail, the so-called "primary
>> Emacs mail-reader" according to RMS. [1]
>
> I have tried many MUAs in the past and Rmail
> is just the perfect tool for my needs ;)
>
> I particularily like the simplicity and the
> fact it does not come with many distractions.
> Thus, when reading my mails, I am really
> focusing on that task: reading my mail ^^

Well, no one, at least not I, is saying no one
cannot use Rmail.

But that quote [1] is incorrect. *Both* Rmail
and Gnus comes with vanilla Emacs, and Gnus is
a hundred times more powerful than Rmail.

Maybe Gnus wasn't around when RMS said/wrote
that? Or maybe it was the old, pre-Ingebrigtsen
GNUS? Or maybe he (RMS) just didn't
know about/cared for either one?

In any case, the quote is incorrect as it
stands. I think it should be removed from the
EmacsWiki, but I'm not about to start an
edit-war for the sake of it.


[1] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Rmail
    http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-09/msg00328.html

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[OFFTOPIC] Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Van L]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> Maybe Gnus wasn't around when RMS said/wrote
> that? Or maybe it was the old, pre-Ingebrigtsen
> GNUS? Or maybe he (RMS) just didn't
> know about/cared for either one?

I'd like to see a 1993 screenshot of RMS at work
when the change to CVS happened and compare
that to the screenshot in Hackers(1995)
when risc-v architecture was mentioned as imagined
by Hollywood.

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> I'd like to see a 1993 screenshot of RMS at
> work when the change to CVS happened and
> compare that to the screenshot in
> Hackers(1995) when risc-v architecture was
> mentioned as imagined by Hollywood.

"Hackers" is a comedy at best.

"[Operation] Takedown" (2000) [1] (supposedly
about Kevin Mitnick, a phreaker with a talent
for social engineering) is OTOH a very cool
movie, but I think the movie-reality
relationship is somewhere around zero to 1.

The inofficial "Hackers 3",
"Antitrust" (2001) [2] has the quality of an
average X-Files episode IMO.


[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159784/

[2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218817/

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Van L]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> "Hackers" is a comedy at best.

The forthcoming "Bill & Ted's 3" [1] can for
laughs time travel to 1984 RMS and the Mac's
keybindings for wordprocessing eschewing Emacs's.

[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096928/

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Van L wrote:

> The forthcoming "Bill & Ted's 3" [1] can for
> laughs time travel to 1984 RMS and the Mac's
> keybindings for wordprocessing
> eschewing Emacs's.

Speaking of Apple a decent computer movie is
"Pirates of Silicon Valley" [1]. At least it is
educative.

Many Apple proselytes like to think Bill Gates
stole the GUI from Apple. Actually it was
already stolen at that point.

Steve Jobs (a non-programmer BTW) is portrayed
as a complete idiot and a very rude person, and
perhaps he was, who knows?

I respect him for being an LSD advocate tho,
even tho he (in this movie) did it in the
outdoors instead of in a dark room with
techno-techno lights everywhere and with
a steady flow of psitrance from the
paleo-speakers...

Gates I respect for being a hacker, just
like us.


[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Damien Collard]

On Dim, mar 17 2019, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> I have only one more question for you before
> I submit the bug, how the <beep> did you ever
> suspect it to work for one variable value, but
> not for another?

That was a difference between your settings and mine that stood out.

> Computers aren't like that!

I haven't looked, but maybe there's a regexp somewhere expecting the
default value. Or something more convoluted :-)

-- 
Damien Collard

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

Damien Collard wrote:

>> Computers aren't like that!
>
> I haven't looked, but maybe there's a regexp
> somewhere expecting the default value.

Impossible. No one can be that lame :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Damien Collard <damien.collard@laposte.net> writes:

> On Dim, mar 17 2019, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
>> I don't have `message-header-separator'.
>> But I do have `mail-header-separator' which
>> seems similar in purpose and effect
>
> Ah, I got confused; `message-header-separator` is a leftover from an
> experiment of mine... Indeed, as you say the variable is
> `mail-header-separator`.
>
>>
>>
>>     Its value is "---"
>>     Original value was
>>     "--text follows this line--"
>>
>>
>> Maybe this is why why the face
>> `message-separator' won't affect it?
>>
>> But if so, then again what *does* it affect?
>
> Well, it seems to only be of effect when `mail-header-separator` has its
> default value "--text follows this line--". I checked, and
>
> - when it's the default separator, I can confirm that changing the face
>   `message-separator` does change the separator's color.
>
> - when I changed `mail-header-separator` to "---" (or anything different
>   from the default), the face `message-separator` doesn't apply to it
>   anymore!

Have you tried restarting Emacs? The value of `mail-header-separator'
gets written into `message-font-lock-keywords', which probably only gets
updated when message.el is loaded for the first time.

Eric

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Damien Collard]

On Dim, mar 17 2019, Eric Abrahamsen wrote:

>> Well, it seems to only be of effect when `mail-header-separator` has its
>> default value "--text follows this line--". I checked, and
>>
>> - when it's the default separator, I can confirm that changing the face
>>   `message-separator` does change the separator's color.
>>
>> - when I changed `mail-header-separator` to "---" (or anything different
>>   from the default), the face `message-separator` doesn't apply to it
>>   anymore!
>
> Have you tried restarting Emacs? The value of `mail-header-separator'
> gets written into `message-font-lock-keywords', which probably only gets
> updated when message.el is loaded for the first time.

I tried, and restarting Emacs does not make it work.

Going from a non-default `mail-header-separator` back to the default
does work (the face applies without the need to restart Emacs).

--
Damien Collard

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Emanuel Berg]

bug#34898 - check out gmane.emacs.bugs from
now on.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: what has the face `message-separator' *really* done for us?

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> writes:

> What has the face `message-separator' *really*
> done for us?
>
> See:
>
>     http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/message-mode-colors.png
>
> The only thing I can think of are the three
> dashes between the header and body parts of the
> message.

Yes, that's the separator you use, apparently.

> But they don't seem to be affected by the face.

Perhaps you've also changed `message-font-lock-keywords' to not use it?
It works for me.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no