From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Devin Prater Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: General advice beyond Org Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 14:09:42 -0500 Message-ID: References: <7dc580d0ea76c21328dc586ffadb5499@openmail.cc> <20180518153157.GA18154@tuxteam.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1526670556 10047 195.159.176.226 (18 May 2018 19:09:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 19:09:16 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (darwin) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 18 21:09:12 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fJkkZ-0002UT-VP for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 21:09:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40592 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJkmg-00039E-SY for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 15:11:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58716) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJklE-0002Gv-Ku for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 15:09:54 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJklB-0003ei-CR for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 15:09:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw0-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::235]:43488) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJklB-0003eM-6n for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 15:09:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-x235.google.com with SMTP id r202-v6so2729503ywg.10 for ; Fri, 18 May 2018 12:09:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cWCq3LhyyZW6LnTDNLl108kMHqXYaUME7CuVtCI0XMU=; b=Pypufexx8z4pfxwT872lAqMk85sBzCUyfPwzV4XARy73lZGigrxcjjBtGL09/iQEio jauJiP8S63HHW8W+C10ROl/8S/3hLDXVMHMBO3wSKHw/BepFKRs62lAUAc2yo3a3h7Wn NQQHma/JBZZuBUug9nf69l9Kvs6jnfIb00Z9rz1/UFFs8KaMwl5acCnR2JU6nGiVI07+ k8mxpjSIBNLn8N81+OOnnl+DZ2mDou0/r2tJoPUwpVmVmQiggxhUbUgZK10jjnzUx512 qw7CphmT/ft3pLiR9jrZnQunfH4kyRTybfT5glbNcm+ORpLXKT4bwhSp2fY4aJlVFMtF Td1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cWCq3LhyyZW6LnTDNLl108kMHqXYaUME7CuVtCI0XMU=; b=q0fmpPMFI6jianfM3oKDl5AxubG+LufI0OfZs7YtkAW6wOzBC9wzlVRLiVgrtunVbi 58MN6qaFNQ/PimQJUKDtiIlZShlXcWqRWdiZMh8an407zZkruS/SlownKApp/kJutXOk 6qWkQXq+74j+del3LMPEWc8tNqgSH/vfjktNzAZEa3ZYgkJIr4X3/fHIwPjmVfHxPloe fVgtWygBKocS3IwgoDf+3UYlmiGnLAx7rvmfpfmT0mX+l5ga750ysDn4qFSCcFpa5CID ooGvAGV6vVXPXuzLCmKagkXjM90AVc6vh0Ve5d3ASEP8V9rplYMiv+ni95UAunYswq+e AK6A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPweEsmBoGsvw6d4cWNkMeidptU33JIeolBDa/Ivelp+djW7C0Kaf 0eXOjDEOQnYwHMrDZ3XE2z8oTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqaSwcJoc7Qymkg2fv9faamQWLFRIU+OhzcbxniwTX04D4aAvClDuwV1SMmy1VW15lntOoxpw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:3e1f:: with SMTP id l31-v6mr5400782ywa.37.1526670588053; Fri, 18 May 2018 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Devins-MacBook-Air.local ([204.29.85.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c3-v6sm3636015ywh.105.2018.05.18.12.09.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 18 May 2018 12:09:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Jason Yamada-Hanff's message of "Fri, 18 May 2018 09:32:21 -0700") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4002:c05::235 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:116772 Archived-At: I agree with this. As a blind user of Emacs, with Emacspeak, I know that sometimes people must use non-free software, like Voxin TTS on Linux, or MacinTalk on macOS, to get speech synthesis that is enjoyable to use. But I do use as much free software as I can to get work done, which is mainly just sticking to Emacs because somehow I can remember all the key commands and my reading comprehension is amazing there, relative to using screen reading, content-unaware systems for the blind. Most blind people, though, use Windows, Microsoft Word, and a screen reader that costs $1099+ and yet could never measure up to Emacspeak, well besides web content but I=E2=80=99m sure that if EWW gained Javascript and HTML5 support, I=E2=80=99d never need to leave Emacs, ever. So, my point is, I ha= ve to interact with these other blind people, and people in Assistive Tech organizations, and I do that well with converting .org files to .docx with Pandoc, using Twittering-mode in Emacs while other blind Mac users pay $20 for Twitterific, and Gnus for email, which is used very often by the blind for list-serves because Email is very accessible for us. I don=E2=80=99t use Latex, yet, and may never have to because Org is so powerful, but you could just use Pandoc for that as well. That=E2=80=99s on= e of the great things about Free things, they try to work with everything, while proprietary software tries to lock users in because their way is supposedly best. Aside: Why am I using a Mac? Accessibility, and great Text-to-speech built-in. Jason Yamada-Hanff writes: > Don't die on this hill. Collaborating with others, especially superiors, > means sometimes adjusting. I split the difference in grad school and used > emacs and other free software where I could and MS where it made > collaboration possible. My first piece of writing was handed to my advisor > as LaTeX. He asked me to convert it to Word, and I did. I wrote my thesis > in LaTeX. When we turned a chapter into a paper, I converted it to Word > before we started collaborating on it. When I handed him my lab notebook = as > a series of org-mode files he could search instantly by text, he liked > that. Sometimes you win. > > Your professors arguments are good. Her tools work well for her. Why shou= ld > she switch to new ones? Your moral principles aren't going to have a lot = of > away. Further, git and other version control does not provide the full > features of Track Changes in Word. > > Sent from phone > > On Fri, May 18, 2018, 9:20 AM Alan E. Davis wrote: > >> I worked as a teacher in a school in a third world context, where the >> district was severely underfunded. I held out as much as I could. I had >> to use proprietary systems, eventually, to report attendance and grades,= so >> I installed Virtual Box. It was a long and hard battle: printer drivers >> were not up to snuff; networking was difficult compared to the M$ >> approach. Back in the day---I started using GNU/Linux in the pre-1.0 >> kernel days---many things did not work smoothly, but the Linux >> Documentation Project was a breath of fresh air, and a beam of light >> enlightened the scene. (As an aside, I note with misgivings that the LDP >> is not well maintained---but I am partially responsible for this, becaus= e I >> didn't work on documentation as perhaps I ought to have. Then again, the >> state of the "Linux Desktop" is such that other supports are available a= nd >> many of the hands on configuration and administration tasks are either >> automatic or much simpler and more intuitive.). >> >> I would suggest, in your context, that you do not have to abandon free >> software, nor, I sense, are you advised to refuse to use the infrastruct= ure >> that has been given. I use emacs for much, I really like org-mode a lot >> and even thought I am not able to take advantage of many of the more >> sophisticated tools of org-mode. You may find, like many before you, th= at >> the tools of free and open source software many streamline your workflow, >> and give you an edge, even while you are using the ordained tools for yo= ur >> specific disciplinary work. When people see that the free and open tools >> work for you, gradually you may make inroads, and not at the expense of >> your career. >> >> I believe this approach has been behind much of the achieved success of >> Free and Open Source software and operating systems. >> >> I am rooting for you. >> >> Alan Davis >> >> >> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 8:31 AM, wrote: >> >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> > Hash: SHA1 >> > >> > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 08:50:32AM -0500, Kevin Buchs wrote: >> > > As a student, you simply need to go along with your supervisor's >> > > recommendations. You are not in a position to dictate the terms. >> > >> > Nobody talks about dictating anything. Some supervisors are more >> > enlightened than other, so trying to talk to them doesn't seem >> > wrong. >> > >> > > Using the >> > > proprietary tools will not hurt you, unless you need to buy your own. >> > >> > With that I disagree strongly: free is not primarily about price >> > (more so in the OP's case, as he stated clearly). Reducing "free" >> > to price totally misses the point, IMO. >> > >> > [...] >> > >> > > So, you need to adjust your attitude. It may be that you are present= ing >> > the >> > > issue of principles - I prefer free, you prefer proprietary, but that >> is >> > > not really the true issue. Maybe you don't know the proprietary tools >> and >> > > don't want to learn them or feel you can't learn them. Choice of too= ls >> > you >> > > use is no reason to switch graduate programs. >> > >> > This whole paragraph comes across as somewhat... condescending. >> > >> > > This is entirely a matter of getting along with other people, not be= ing >> > > selfish, etc. These are life skills we are talking about. >> > >> > Definitely. And part of this getting along is trying to negotiate >> > what matters to oneself and to others. I do agree that an intransigent >> > attitude isn't helpful, but Edgar didn't show something like that. >> > >> > Fostering free software is exactly about "not being selfish". >> > >> > Cheers >> > - -- tom=C3=A1s >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) >> > >> > iEYEARECAAYFAlr+8e0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kax+wCfbKhTlIUw6n2SL106P2GgS4qa >> > SWYAnjKwfLqGw5KnPqBCPPb1GHutiLfQ >> > =3DszdJ >> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> [Fill in the blanks] >> >> The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...--- >> outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony >> alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigni= ng >> disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of >> view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence. >> >> ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations) >>