From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: goncholden Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 06:33:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83bkuzxvur.fsf@gnu.org> <878rq2gyoc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8t6fj7i.fsf@yahoo.com> <837d5mwda0.fsf@gnu.org> <871qvt2rjo.fsf@dataswamp.org> Reply-To: goncholden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21379"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 13 08:36:44 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o0dgp-0005L5-59 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 08:36:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38128 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0dgo-000551-4v for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 02:36:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37304) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0ddf-00053q-Qx for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 02:33:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-40138.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.138]:20044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0ddZ-0007Qe-Es for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 02:33:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1655101993; x=1655361193; bh=WA3MKdFHKeoOAeherVIo3pjAJUv4E9CJfVNHoWGuTNg=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=CmKdjlgynbKUWu+SV/KRe4FbJwxxipiWs1jpycfMDBI4kuLShws4BhjcfuaoUSCl8 TC4iHLpfk4hJuYmaseb1q7JGBSCzqH6pft4rT5HbOAvQzvr7Sfs/yPLPxcjCO8S0H0 holwGvk+TUQ/uNUant+57vCwZ3u4fogGZHAZEvBRuJlk8TKSn6jlOQZyfL2FWGq+A2 hbvBYu5JdsnBNDp0DMf5juIsb6ly4/GW41GiF9yzI56F1zT3PFXs4axLQwwUhXdZKE 0Zd/tuN4K0qnzTEIvs4jV+lGNsIQivmOuVRlnAwshYfOupkBAWuiJjoTUP+OxLtiRA JNH9H5SldcRJw== In-Reply-To: Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.40.138; envelope-from=goncholden@protonmail.com; helo=mail-40138.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:137769 Archived-At: On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 5:39 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > * Emanuel Berg incal@dataswamp.org [2022-06-13 06:04]: > > > Jean Louis wrote: > > > > > > Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want > > > > automatic (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor > > > > if all you want is to disable each and every feature which > > > > makes its powerful? > > > > > > Maybe manual shall have a section about disabling indentation. > > > > Indentation should always be used and the more it can be > > automated the better. > > > Programmers' indentation is akin to holy war. > > Read the quote: > > ,---- > | "Many early programmers used tab characters to indent, for ease of > | typing and to save on source file size" > `---- That's what they did > from: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentation_style#Tabs,_spaces,_and_size_of= _indentations > > I can think that sources from past may have its cultural > significance. Reformatting such sources may rather be destructive for > the full understanding of the programming roots. Agreed > Other fact is that various editors simply do not indent same way the > same language or markup, as there are too many different subjective > assumptions and attempts to impose these or those rules. > > Frustration as result is understandable. > > I cannot find anything about indentation in Emacs GUI menu. But I can > find indentation settings in editor such as Leo (most similar to > Emacs), Mousepad, or Notepadqq or Gvim. In Emacs "Options Menu" it > appears there is more importance if cursor is to blink or not and if > tool bar, tab bar and menu bar are shown or not shown, while many > other useful user options are not there. > > And Emacs users will stick to their habits and will say, well, if you > wish to customize anything use setq or customize options. However, it > may reject users or create esoteric impressions, that Emacs is not for > everybody, but rather for advanced users. For my case it was not about the advanced user thing. It was about doing w= hat was needed. I never cared how advanced and powerful emacs re-formattin= g was. > As a quick test, when I imagine I am Notepadqq user and now coming to > Emacs, I was used as Notepadqq user to easily find option under Edit > -> Indentation -> where I could choose Smart Indentation, Custom or > > Default Settings. I do not say it is better than what... (Emacs), I > just give it as example. Then I open up Emacs and then I cannot find > anything about indentation. If I go to top level group and write > "indent" I get bunch of words I am not used to, like "Latex Indent > Comment Start Regexp" and "Bibtex Contline Indentation" and so on, > there is no way I can understand easily on the 74th line what is > "Electric Indent Mode" just by looking into customization option. In > fact if I click on "More" which implies the meaning to be "more > information", I am faced with this happy greeting: > > ,---- > | " See the =E2=80=98electric-indent-mode=E2=80=99 command > | for a description of this minor mode. > | Setting this variable directly does not take effect; > | either customize it (see the info node =E2=80=98Easy Customization= =E2=80=99) > | or call the function =E2=80=98electric-indent-mode=E2=80=99. > | " > `---- So, tell me, how am I supposed as user to get some indentation sett= ings without going through bushes of torns until I come to full understandi= ng what is going on? By the way, when I click "More" the function` electric= -indent-mode' on > that place is not linked to anything, I cannot just click on it to > understand it, and what follows is that me as a user of Notepadqq, > Gvim, or Mousepad editor on GNU/Linux, I simply cannot find a common > option, I cannot find it, even though I used customization search > feature, I wrote "indent" and I got bunch of nonsense, no real > guidance, I cannot possibly do it, neither I can understand "how to > see `electric-indent-mode' command for a description of this minor > mode". We can go get drunk with the Massai after your ability to see things as the= y are. > The above small analysis is there to demonstrate differences to > editors and difficulties. > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/