Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>]

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 2:52 AM, Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> wrote:

> > I just find westerners naive. As is saying that peace will be
>
> established in exchange for conceding some territories - also naive. 
>
> Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many bombers - and gave them
>
> all up thinking that such actions would ensure its future security.
>
> Ukraine was mostly forced to concede it's nuclear weapons in exchange
>
> for it's territorial integrity and sovereignty in 1991 this deal was
>
> done by Leonid Kravchuk (first president of ukraine who was strongly
>
> pro-russian and anti-western as evident by his affiliation with Dynamo
>
> Group and political affiliations) with the soviet union (now russia).
>
> Calling this "western naivity" is historically flawed.
>
> ---
>
> Nothing is perfect thus why it's important to maintain it, improve it
>
> over time and enable everyone to join on the effort.
>
> The European Union is not going to concede any territory and will defend
> every inch of it.

NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine.  Yet the 30-member bloc is
unwilling to acknowledge this truth.  By western naivity, I meant the general
naivity of citizens about their governments.

> On 3/1/22 15:34, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
>
> editor wrote:
>
> > goncholden wrote:
> >
> > > Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
> > > make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
> > > I just find westerners naive.
> > >
> > > Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
> > > comparable to Russia's ...

> > But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
> > any way!

> > We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.

> > > As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
> > > conceding some territories - also naive.

> > > Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...

What we are seeing are more borders these days.