emacs24 X primary selection changes

emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

I don't always use emacs in an X11 graphics window but when I do I
often use it with X cut buffers.  I can cut a large amount of text
accurately inside of emacs.  Much easier than mousing over it.

The emacs 24 NEWS says:

  *** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.

And it is definitely gone.  I can no longer cut and paste to or from
emacs in X mode from the X cut and paste buffer.  I don't know why it
was removed but it is a feature that I dearly miss now that it is
gone.

Is there any way in the current emacs to cut and paste from the
keyboard?  I know it still supports it because it works with the
mouse just not the keyboard.

I guess I will need to write some type of local function around
'xclip' in order to regain that functionality.  Sigh.

Thanks,
Bob

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> Is there any way in the current emacs to cut and paste from the
> keyboard?  I know it still supports it because it works with the
> mouse just not the keyboard.

(setq select-active-regions nil
      mouse-drag-copy-region t
      x-select-enable-primary t
      x-select-enable-clipboard nil)

to get sane selection/X interaction defaults back.      
      
-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Bob Proulx writes:
> > Is there any way in the current emacs to cut and paste from the
> > keyboard?  I know it still supports it because it works with the
> > mouse just not the keyboard.
> 
> (setq select-active-regions nil
>       mouse-drag-copy-region t
>       x-select-enable-primary t
>       x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
> 
> to get sane selection/X interaction defaults back.      

Yay!  Just tried it and it worked great.  Now to read the
documentation on each of those to understand any side effects.

Thank you!
Bob

RE: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Drew Adams]

> (setq select-active-regions nil
>       mouse-drag-copy-region t
>       x-select-enable-primary t
>       x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
> 
> to get sane selection/X interaction defaults back.      

+1 to getting back sane defaults.

But I use non-nil `x-select-enable-clipboard'.

(And there is no `x-select-enable-primary' on MS Windows.)

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Drew Adams wrote:
> > (setq select-active-regions nil
> >       mouse-drag-copy-region t
> >       x-select-enable-primary t
> >       x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
> > 
> > to get sane selection/X interaction defaults back.      
> 
> +1 to getting back sane defaults.

Are you also having this problem on MS Windows?

> But I use non-nil `x-select-enable-clipboard'.

Probably the best answer for you on MS-Windows.  Does Windows have
anything other than the clipboard?  I don't know.

> (And there is no `x-select-enable-primary' on MS Windows.)

Well... Since I was asking about the X primary selection the above
answer was perfect for me on a Unix or GNU machine.  The question is
specifically about X Windows and not MS Windows.  On MS Windows I have
no idea but assume there is only the Windows clipboard.  There
wouldn't be an X cut buffer unless you have done something to install
X Windows onto your MS machine.  I'd expect that to be very unusual.

The above variables are all present in emacs v23 and the above values
return them to the v23 default values.  I had actually noticed the new
x-select-enable-clipboard-manager in v24 but had not found the above
full set and hadn't gotten it working for me.  The above answer was
perfect given the question.

Also to be clear using the mouse to cut and paste always worked.  It
was the previous emacs behavior of using the keyboard to interact with
the cut buffer that changed.  Previously (and now again with the above
setting, thank you!) the act of killing text in emacs or yanking text
in emacs using C-w and C-y and the other related commands would cut
into the X cut buffer and yank from the X cut buffer.  The default in
v24 has changed so that this no longer happens.  I don't know why the
default was changed.  I assume it is further encroachment of CUA mode
to be more MS Windows like since I can't think of any other reason.

Bob

RE: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Drew Adams]

> > > (setq select-active-regions nil
> > >       mouse-drag-copy-region t
> > >       x-select-enable-primary t
> > >       x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
> > > 
> > > to get sane selection/X interaction defaults back.      
> > 
> > +1 to getting back sane defaults.
> 
> Are you also having this problem on MS Windows?

Not sure what "this problem" is, but yes, I had to change the default settings
as I described, to get back the previous, sane behavior.

> > But I use non-nil `x-select-enable-clipboard'.
> 
> Probably the best answer for you on MS-Windows.  Does Windows have
> anything other than the clipboard?  I don't know.

It has no separate primary.

> > (And there is no `x-select-enable-primary' on MS Windows.)
> 
> Well... Since I was asking about the X primary selection the above
> answer was perfect for me on a Unix or GNU machine.  The question is
> specifically about X Windows and not MS Windows.  On MS Windows I have
> no idea but assume there is only the Windows clipboard.  There
> wouldn't be an X cut buffer unless you have done something to install
> X Windows onto your MS machine.  I'd expect that to be very unusual.

Right.

> I don't know why the default was changed.  I assume it is further encroachment
of CUA mode
> to be more MS Windows like since I can't think of any other reason.

I can't speak for Emacs Dev obviously, and I might have misunderstood, but I
believe that all of the default changes wrt selection etc. were to bring Emacs
more into line with X Window.  AFAIK, nothing to do with CUA or MS Windows. 

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Drew Adams wrote:
> Bob Proulx wrote:
> > Drew Adams wrote:
> > > +1 to getting back sane defaults.
> > 
> > Are you also having this problem on MS Windows?
> 
> Not sure what "this problem" is,

"The Problem" was loss of emacs keyboard interaction with the X Window
primary selection cut buffer between v23 and v24.  Cutting with the
mouse in some other X window application puts the text into the X
Windows cut buffer also known as the primary selection.  In v23
yanking text would copy text from that buffer.  In v24 C-y no longer
yanked text in from it.  In v24 C-y yank ignored the X Window primary
selection cut buffer.  This breaks keyboard use.  However paste using
the mouse still worked.

This is one of those features that you don't realize is nice until it
is taken away.  Then if you were using it you really miss it.

> but yes, I had to change the default settings as I described, to get
> back the previous, sane behavior.

Probably similar but substituting MS Windows clipboard for X Windows
primary selection cut buffer.  Don't know.

> > > But I use non-nil `x-select-enable-clipboard'.
> > 
> > Probably the best answer for you on MS-Windows.  Does Windows have
> > anything other than the clipboard?  I don't know.
> 
> It has no separate primary.

Right.

> > I don't know why the default was changed.  I assume it is further
> > encroachment of CUA mode to be more MS Windows like since I can't
> > think of any other reason.
> 
> I can't speak for Emacs Dev obviously, and I might have
> misunderstood, but I believe that all of the default changes wrt
> selection etc. were to bring Emacs more into line with X Window.
> AFAIK, nothing to do with CUA or MS Windows.

Tragicomically although I found the news entry for "cut buffer",
because I searched it for "cut buffer" I missed the entried
*immediately above it* in the NEWS file titled "Selection changes"
that describes these changes in some detail.  "D'oh!"  It was there
but I missed seeing it due to poor keyword selection.

In that news entry it says:

  The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
  changed to conform with modern X applications.  In short, most
  commands for killing and yanking text now use the clipboard, while
  mouse commands use the primary selection.

For me these changes broke my X applications.  I guess I am not using
any application that uses the clipboard.  For me the main X
applications from which I cut text from are Xterm, Firefox, Chromium,
other random programs but I will ignore Xterm from this discussion
since it is a venerable old program.

But Firefox and Chromium are both new and cutting text from neither of
them could be pasted into emacs using C-y unless the suggested return
to v23 control variable values were made.  Therefore that news entry
seems incorrect with regards to "modern X applications" unless they
are also arguing that Firefox and Chromium are not modern X
applications.

Bob

RE: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Drew Adams]

> In that news entry it says:
>   The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
>   changed to conform with modern X applications.  In short, most
>   commands for killing and yanking text now use the clipboard, while
>   mouse commands use the primary selection.
> 
> For me these changes broke my X applications.  I guess I am not using
> any application that uses the clipboard.  For me the main X
> applications from which I cut text from are Xterm, Firefox, Chromium,
> other random programs but I will ignore Xterm from this discussion
> since it is a venerable old program.
> 
> But Firefox and Chromium are both new and cutting text from neither of
> them could be pasted into emacs using C-y unless the suggested return
> to v23 control variable values were made.  Therefore that news entry
> seems incorrect with regards to "modern X applications" unless they
> are also arguing that Firefox and Chromium are not modern X
> applications.

Consider filing an Emacs bug report if you think the NEWS entry is incorrect.

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Drew Adams wrote:
> > In that news entry it says:
> >   The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
> >   changed to conform with modern X applications.  In short, most
> >   commands for killing and yanking text now use the clipboard, while
> >   mouse commands use the primary selection.
>
> Consider filing an Emacs bug report if you think the NEWS entry is incorrect.

This is one of those things that is vague enough that it is hard to
really nail down.  And I am not an expert on X programming enough to
say one way or the other.

For all I know "modern" in this context refers to a new API that has
yet to be adopted elsewhere.  It needs discussion with someone who
knows why this change was made before a good assessment can be made.
I hate filing a bug when I am this much in the blind.

Because maybe Firefox and Chromium are both using the primary
selection instead of the clipboard for compatibilty but if they were
configured differently then perhaps it would work?  Don't know.

Perhaps a fully consistent clipboard strategy would work okay?  Having
a fully consistent strategy across a large transition is often hard.
Is this one of those transitions?  I don't know.

Bob

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Jason Rumney]

On Friday, 4 January 2013 08:12:57 UTC+8, Bob Proulx  wrote:
> 
> "The Problem" was loss of emacs keyboard interaction with the X Window
> primary selection cut buffer between v23 and v24.  Cutting with the
> mouse in some other X window application puts the text into the X
> Windows cut buffer also known as the primary selection.

Actually cut buffers and the primary selection are not the same thing. Cut buffers are an older method of transferring text between applications, which have been obsolete for decades, and for which support was removed in Emacs 24.
The primary selection is what you are used to using.

> For me these changes broke my X applications.  I guess I am not using
> any application that uses the clipboard.

To use the clipboard in any application, you generally need to do so explicitly, either using the keyboard shortcuts for Copy and Paste, or using menus.  For the primary selection, it is whatever was last highlighted by the mouse.

>  For me the main X 
> applications from which I cut text from are Xterm, Firefox, Chromium,
> other random programs but I will ignore Xterm from this discussion
> since it is a venerable old program.

For sure, Firefox and Chromium support the clipboard as well as primary.  Xterm maybe not unless it is actually some other "wrapper" for xterm such as kterm or gnome-terminal.

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Jason Rumney]

On Friday, 4 January 2013 08:49:11 UTC+8, Bob Proulx  wrote:

> Because maybe Firefox and Chromium are both using the primary
> selection instead of the clipboard for compatibilty but if they were
> configured differently then perhaps it would work?  Don't know.

Firefox and Chromium are doing the same as what Emacs 24 now does by default.
If you select something with the mouse, it becomes the primary selection.  If you press C-c, or select Copy from the menu, then it also gets put on the clipboard.

If you want to insert the primary selection into the URL bar or a text field on a form in Firefox or Chrome, you need to use the mouse.  If you use C-v, or Paste from the menu, then it will insert from the clipboard.

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> > I don't know why the default was changed.  I assume it is further encroachment
> of CUA mode
> > to be more MS Windows like since I can't think of any other reason.
> 
> I can't speak for Emacs Dev obviously, and I might have misunderstood, but I
> believe that all of the default changes wrt selection etc. were to bring Emacs
> more into line with X Window.  AFAIK, nothing to do with CUA or MS Windows. 

The initiative indeed came from Unix and X side, and was inspired by
how X applications behave lately.  But I strongly suspect that the
latter was in turn caused by slow intoxication of the Unix world by
features and behavior originating from Windows.  E.g., the fact that
clipboard data is manipulated by keyboard was always how Windows
behaved (because there was never an X selection on Windows).  Of
course, now there's a whole "philosophy" behind that...

In general, we now have a generation of people using Posix systems
whose UI experience and expectations come from Windows-based behavior
or from other people whose experience is rooted in Windows.
Otherwise, I cannot explain why all the major X desktops look like
copies of the Windows desktop, including all of its annoyances.  I'm
afraid the next generation of X desktops will look like the silly
Windows 8 "Metro" thingy.

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Jason Rumney wrote:
> Bob Proulx  wrote:
> > Because maybe Firefox and Chromium are both using the primary
> > selection instead of the clipboard for compatibilty but if they were
> > configured differently then perhaps it would work?  Don't know.
> 
> Firefox and Chromium are doing the same as what Emacs 24 now does by
> default.
> If you select something with the mouse, it becomes the primary
> selection.

Right.  So Firefox and Chromium are using the primary selection by
default.  No change.  Sounds good.

> If you press C-c, or select Copy from the menu, then it
> also gets put on the clipboard.

Oh, so if you take the additional action after highlighting some text
of typing in the keys C-c or the menu copy action then with that
additional explicit action it goes to the clipboard instead of the
primary selection.  Or perhaps in addition to the primary selection
because it went there first when it was highlighted.  Gotcha!

So if I had highlighted something and then added C-c to push it into
the clipboard and then yanked that into emacs I would have seen the
text in emacs.

I would never have expected that!  And I would have tried it if I had
thought of it.

But of course there isn't a way to cause that difference with a xterm
which is where I mostly cut text from.  So while that works with the X
browsers it doesn't work with a text terminal.  (I know that some text
terminals add mouse menus that doing that would add a lot of mouse
clicks and would be tedious to do very many very fast.)

> If you want to insert the primary selection into the URL bar or a
> text field on a form in Firefox or Chrome, you need to use the
> mouse.

Right.  But that is long standing normal behavior.  Drag mouse-1 and
it copies text where it can then be pasted from.  That is the way that
it has always worked on X Windows.  That is what everyone coming from
an X Windows background expects.  But the words of your response read
as if that would be abnormal.  But that isn't abnormal.  It is normal.

(I realize that people coming from an MS Windows background expects
something different and that I am outnumbered by the huge number of
the newcomers.  But I still resist because the paradigm isn't as nice.)

> If you use C-v, or Paste from the menu, then it will insert
> from the clipboard.

Gotcha.  Keys use the clipboard in the new MS-Windows way to do things.

> Actually cut buffers and the primary selection are not the same
> thing. Cut buffers are an older method of transferring text between
> applications, which have been obsolete for decades, and for which
> support was removed in Emacs 24. The primary selection is what you are
> used to using.

The naming is a little confusing.  And as I said I found the wrong
section by poor use of keywords while searching.  I can't believe I
missed the section immediately above the one I found.  Thank you for
educating me that the cut buffers referred to something yet
different.  That is useful to know to interpret that entry.

Bob

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > I don't know why the default was changed.  I assume it is
> > > further encroachment of CUA mode to be more MS Windows like
> > > since I can't think of any other reason.
> > 
> > I can't speak for Emacs Dev obviously, and I might have
> > misunderstood, but I believe that all of the default changes wrt
> > selection etc. were to bring Emacs more into line with X Window.
> > AFAIK, nothing to do with CUA or MS Windows.
> 
> The initiative indeed came from Unix and X side, and was inspired by
> how X applications behave lately.  But I strongly suspect that the
> latter was in turn caused by slow intoxication of the Unix world by
> features and behavior originating from Windows.  E.g., the fact that
> clipboard data is manipulated by keyboard was always how Windows
> behaved (because there was never an X selection on Windows).  Of
> course, now there's a whole "philosophy" behind that...

I completely agree with your assessment.

But X Window applications have always expected dragging mouse-1 to
copy text and mouse-2 to paste text.  Any change away from that isn't
"to conform with modern X applications" as stated in the NEWS entry.
I am becoming more convinced that it is a poor description.  But that
modifying word "modern" is a "weasel word" that makes it harder to
nail down.  It allows for "modern X app" to be different from "X app".
If modern X applications are becoming more MS Windows like then it is
true even if it is less X Window like.

> In general, we now have a generation of people using Posix systems
> whose UI experience and expectations come from Windows-based behavior
> or from other people whose experience is rooted in Windows.
> Otherwise, I cannot explain why all the major X desktops look like
> copies of the Windows desktop, including all of its annoyances.  I'm
> afraid the next generation of X desktops will look like the silly
> Windows 8 "Metro" thingy.

Agreed.  But the Windows 8 Metro desktop looks to me like an imitation
of the previous phone/tablet systems such as Unity, GNOME3, Android
and iOS.  It is just flat 2D instead of 3D icons that makes it look
like it does.  But otherwise not really new at all.  Just
"phone-like".  Certainly if a new X desktop environment produces a
flat 2D theme tiling manager that looks like Windows 8 Metro then
there will be no doubt about where the history of it came from.

To wind this thread down let me close by saying that I was stuck.  I
had read documentation, NEWS, FAQs and searched.  I had tried many
things.  I failed.  I didn't figure it out.  I asked for help.  I got
excellent help!  Thank you!  I was able to configure emacs back to my
liking.  I continue to use emacs happily.

Thanks to all!

Bob

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Thomas E. Dickey]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 11:25:44 PM UTC-5, Jason Rumney wrote:
> 
> For sure, Firefox and Chromium support the clipboard as well as primary.  Xterm maybe not unless it is actually some other "wrapper" for xterm such as kterm or gnome-terminal.

http://http://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm.log.html#xterm_209
Patch #209 - 2006/2/12 - XFree86 4.5.99.22
add resource selectToClipboard, action set-select and a menu entry to allow users to switch between PRIMARY and CLIPBOARD for select/paste.

(perhaps you meant to point out something different, e.g., a lack in konsole
or gnome-terminal)

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Yuri Khan]

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> wrote:

> But of course there isn't a way to cause that difference with a xterm
> which is where I mostly cut text from.  So while that works with the X
> browsers it doesn't work with a text terminal.  (I know that some text
> terminals add mouse menus that doing that would add a lot of mouse
> clicks and would be tedious to do very many very fast.)

libvte-based terminal emulators (gnome-terminal, xfce4-terminal) have
Copy and Paste on Ctrl+Shift+C and Ctrl+Shift+V and also on Ctrl+Ins
and Shift+Ins by default. Additionally, the former pair of shortcuts
is configurable.

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 16:11:43 -0700
> From: Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com>
> 
> But X Window applications have always expected dragging mouse-1 to
> copy text and mouse-2 to paste text.

They still do that, but C-w and M-w in Emacs no longer put text into
the primary selection, and so mouse-2 in another application will not
paste that text.  C-w and M-w now put the text into the clipboard, and
it will only be pasted into other applications with C-v etc.

> Any change away from that isn't "to conform with modern X
> applications" as stated in the NEWS entry.

The change is not in mouse gestures, it is in keyboard keys that copy
and paste text.  These keys now work with the clipboard, not with the
primary selection.  And _that_ change does track the current behavior
of other applications on X.

> But the Windows 8 Metro desktop looks to me like an imitation
> of the previous phone/tablet systems such as Unity, GNOME3, Android
> and iOS.

No, it is a gigantic gamble that desktops are no longer relevant; only
tablets are.

> To wind this thread down let me close by saying that I was stuck.  I
> had read documentation, NEWS, FAQs and searched.  I had tried many
> things.  I failed.  I didn't figure it out.  I asked for help.  I got
> excellent help!  Thank you!  I was able to configure emacs back to my
> liking.  I continue to use emacs happily.
> 
> Thanks to all!

Happy hacking with Emacs!

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Jason Rumney]

On Saturday, 5 January 2013 07:11:43 UTC+8, Bob Proulx  wrote:

> But X Window applications have always expected dragging mouse-1 to
> copy text and mouse-2 to paste text.

Which is what Emacs has always, and still does.

> I am becoming more convinced that it is a poor description.  But that
> modifying word "modern" is a "weasel word" that makes it harder to
> nail down.  It allows for "modern X app" to be different from "X app".
> If modern X applications are becoming more MS Windows like then it is
> true even if it is less X Window like.

Modern X applications are not becoming less X Window like.  In the bad old days, you had applications like xterm that only supported PRIMARY, and other applications (CDE ones especially, probably also Motif where they came from) that only supported CLIPBOARD.  There was no standard, and Emacs way of doing things was only one of many.

Now things are standardising - PRIMARY is for the currently selected text, and CLIPBOARD is for text that you explicitly put there.  It has been that way in Emacs for some time, except that the Emacs kill-ring (C-w/M-w/C-y) put PRIMARY are the front of the kill-ring, even though use of the kill-ring is an explicit action, so fits better with the CLIPBOARD.

In summary:

Selecting text with the mouse or keyboard: puts the text in PRIMARY for as long as the selection remains active and some other application does not override it.  In earlier versions, the text could remain in PRIMARY even after the selection became inactive.

mouse-2: inserts the text from PRIMARY (in previous versions it inserted from the kill-ring, which was often the same thing due to Emacs putting PRIMARY at the head of the kill-ring).

C-y: inserts the text from the kill-ring. In Emacs-24, CLIPBOARD from other applications is automatically placed at the head of the kill-ring, in previous versions, PRIMARY from other applications is automatically placed at the head of the kill-ring.

C-w/M-w: kill/copy to the kill-ring.  In Emacs-24, these also put text on the CLIPBOARD for other applications. In earlier versions, they put non-selected text into PRIMARY (which is non-standard behaviour - I don't think any other X application does/did this).

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Bob Proulx]

Thomas E. Dickey wrote:
> http://http://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm.log.html#xterm_209
> Patch #209 - 2006/2/12 - XFree86 4.5.99.22
> add resource selectToClipboard, action set-select and a menu entry
> to allow users to switch between PRIMARY and CLIPBOARD for
> select/paste.

Thank you drawing my attention to this configuration option!  The
tools we use the longest are the ones we least read documentation for
as we think we already know how to use them.  I didn't realize this
feature had been added.

With this option available in xterm I see that I could have gone to
the complete reverse configuration of using the clipboard everywhere
instead of using the primary selection everywhere.  I will probably do
just that at some point in the future.

Thanks!
Bob

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Ken Goldman]

My personal preference that is cut from any application goes into one 
buffer and paste from any application comes from that buffer.

That seems to be the Windows default.

Linux has multiple buffers.  I use Parcellite to keep them in sync.

On 1/3/2013 7:12 PM, Bob Proulx wrote:
>
> "The Problem" was loss of emacs keyboard interaction with the X Window
> primary selection cut buffer between v23 and v24.  Cutting with the
> mouse in some other X window application puts the text into the X
> Windows cut buffer also known as the primary selection.  In v23
> yanking text would copy text from that buffer.  In v24 C-y no longer
> yanked text in from it.  In v24 C-y yank ignored the X Window primary
> selection cut buffer.  This breaks keyboard use.  However paste using
> the mouse still worked.

>

Re: emacs24 X primary selection changes

[Stefan Monnier]

> I don't always use emacs in an X11 graphics window but when I do I
> often use it with X cut buffers.

I doubt you do.  X cut buffers are an ancient system with severe limits
(on things like the maximum size of text, the encoding of the text, ...)
that little more than Emacs and xterm still supported.


        Stefan