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From: Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Appending lists
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 18:35:35 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <jwv1r91jvjh.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: YMpvyuGZJRNgUL9Z@protected.localdomain

> To put a point across it would be better to announce or make a title
> that you don't talk how "variable never changes", but you talk about
> the structures in memory and somewhat interesting though practically
> within the spoken context useless information. What matters for
> programmer is that variable A instead of holding value 1 now has value
> 2, that is a change, and how that change was internally accomplished
> does not change the fact that A is now not 1 but is 2.  (づ。◕‿‿◕。)づ

That's the problem with mutation.
In a language like Haskell where mutation is not allowed, when you have

    x = [1, 2, 3]

then the value held in variable `x` is really a list of 3 elements.
But in a language like ELisp, when you have

    (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) ...

the value held in variable `x` is not a list of 3 elements: it's really
nothing more than a reference to a location in memory holding a cons
cell (constraints in ELisp's type system ensure that this location in
memory will always hold a cons cell).  The values held in the `car/cdr`
of that cons cell will depend on the current memory state, they are not
part of "the value held in `x`".

The vast majority of ELisp code never uses `setcar/setcdr`, tho, so we
tend to overlook this inconvenient truth and talk (and think) about
those values as if we were in the presence of immutable data.
That's why `nconc`, `nreverse`, `sort`, and other similar side-effecting
functions need to be used with a lot of care.


        Stefan




  reply	other threads:[~2021-06-16 22:35 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 96+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-06-14 16:36 Appending lists Pierpaolo Bernardi
2021-06-14 16:40 ` henri-biard
2021-06-14 18:21   ` Alexandr Vityazev
2021-06-15  0:46     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-15  8:27       ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-15  9:18         ` tomas
2021-06-16  1:11           ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16  7:28             ` tomas
2021-06-16  9:13               ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16  9:32                 ` tomas
2021-06-16 10:55                   ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 16:44                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 18:00                       ` Using Emacs for business Jean Louis
2021-06-16 22:59                         ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 23:39                           ` Jean Louis
2021-06-17  0:16                             ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17  7:09                               ` Jean Louis
2021-07-06  3:22                                 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-06 20:23                                   ` Jean Louis
2021-07-06 20:41                                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-07  0:18                                       ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16  9:19               ` Appending lists Jean Louis
2021-06-16  9:35                 ` tomas
2021-06-16 10:57                   ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 16:55                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 11:16                 ` Yuri Khan
2021-06-16 11:30                   ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 11:54                     ` tomas
2021-06-16 17:31                       ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 23:13                         ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 23:41                           ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 13:01                     ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-06-16 16:59                       ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 17:36                       ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 18:54                         ` tomas
2021-06-16 21:24                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-06-16 23:25                             ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17  7:16                               ` tomas
2021-06-17  7:14                             ` tomas
2021-06-16 23:24                           ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 23:19                         ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 11:49                   ` [OT] Underground (was: Appending lists) tomas
2021-06-19  0:10                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 16:54                 ` Appending lists Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 18:49                   ` tomas
2021-06-16 21:40                     ` Jean Louis
2021-06-16 22:35                       ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor [this message]
2021-06-16 23:02                         ` Jean Louis
2021-06-17  0:00                           ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 23:44                         ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17  7:20                           ` tomas
2021-06-16 23:39                       ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 23:31                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 14:22               ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 15:11                 ` tomas
2021-06-16 15:31                   ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 15:48                     ` tomas
2021-06-16 23:04                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17  2:41                       ` [OFFTOPIC] " Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17  6:09                         ` Arthur Miller
2021-06-17  6:29                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-06-17 23:53                             ` Arthur Miller
2021-06-18 14:15                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-06-19  0:04                                 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-19  1:20                                   ` Eduardo Ochs
2021-06-19  2:18                                     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-19  2:43                                   ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-21 15:07                                 ` Arthur Miller
2021-06-17  7:51                         ` tomas
2021-06-17  7:50                       ` tomas
2021-06-18 23:47                         ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-19  2:35                           ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-19  6:52                             ` tomas
2021-06-16 23:03                 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 16:42               ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 16:55                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-06-16 17:06                   ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-16 17:54                     ` Drew Adams
2021-06-16 23:49                       ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17  7:54                         ` tomas
2021-06-17 12:41                           ` [OFFTOPIC] " Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-17 14:19                             ` tomas
2021-06-18 23:55                           ` [External] : " Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-06-17  3:18 Drew Adams
2021-06-17  7:48 ` tomas
2021-06-18 23:38   ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-18 23:50   ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-19  6:57     ` tomas
2021-06-19 21:31       ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-14 16:44 Pierpaolo Bernardi
2021-06-15  0:56 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-15  1:47   ` henri-biard
2021-06-15  7:09     ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-06-14 16:24 Pierpaolo Bernardi
2021-06-14 16:32 ` henri-biard
2021-06-14 16:08 henri-biard

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