gnus, thunderbird and imap

gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Hi,

I'm thinking of trying (once again) to use gnus for my mail reading.
I currently use Thunderbird to read my mail via IMAP. I'd like to
continue using Thunderbird while I get gnus configured. The directions
provided here 

http://sachachua.com/notebook/wickedcool/wc-emacs-05-gnus.html

Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
What I'm wondering is if it's possible to point gnus at the IMAP
directory in .thunderbird instead? Alternatively, is it possible to set
up an IMAP server and reconfigure both thunderbird and gnus to read from
the local server? I want to keep all my mail on the remote server as
well, synced up automatically to what I do locally (i.e., deleting or
moving messages on Thunderbird causes the same action to take place on
the remote server.)

I know these sorts of gnus questions come up a lot, but frankly I find
the manuals overwhelming. What I need to know is where to start: do I
begin with setting up my local IMAP server, or can I skip that and use
the system already established by Thunderbird?

Thanks,

Tyler
 

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Rud1ger Sch1erz]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.

Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
gnus is installed.

Cheers,
Rudiger

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>
> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
> gnus is installed.
>

Thanks. Reading further down my own link (d'oh) I found instructions for
direct access to IMAP. I'll try that out to begin with.

Cheers,

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Richard Riley]

Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>
> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
> gnus is installed.
>
> Cheers,
> Rudiger
>

Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[ken]

On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
> 
>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>
>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>> gnus is installed.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rudiger
>>
> 
> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.

For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server (my
ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?

The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
 Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email
client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will
be that good some day.  Apparently it isn't there yet.  I really wish it
was... believe me, I'd love to use emacs for my email.  Maybe in a few
years a really good, savvy, customer-oriented, and thorough emacs
developer or two will get involved and we'll finally get it.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:

> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>> 
>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>> gnus is installed.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Rudiger
>>>
>> 
>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>
> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  

I do have it running off the remote server now. However, it's noticeably
slower than Thunderbird - often several seconds delay while moving
messages between folders or rescanning new mail. On Thunderbird, with a
local message repository, there is also a delay, but it's shorter and
doesn't lock the entire application up. So I may still go the extra
effort to set up a local server.

> Moreover, using the remote server (my ISP's) allows me to access my
> email from anywhere in the world where I can get an internet
> connection. Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS server... and of
> course secured and firewalled it... and put those machines on a UPS
> and performed regular backups. But why go through all that when the
> ISP (or other organization) does it for free?

I assume I could set up a local server that would mirror, rather than
download, the remote server? Thunderbird is set up to download all my
messages off of the remote server, but it doesn't delete anything. So I
get the advantage of local speed, plus I can access the server from
other machines anywhere else. I'd like to have that with gnus,
eventually. 

>
> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
> that up... 

*should* being the operative word, of course. I'm still ironing out
 issues after several hours of reading manuals, googling and prowling
 mailing lists. Granted, the initial connection to the IMAP server
 probably was accomplished in less than a single hour.

Thanks to all for your comments!

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Richard Riley]

ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:

> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>> 
>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>> gnus is installed.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Rudiger
>>>
>> 
>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>
> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server
> (my

Possibly for you. Gnus IMAP performance was dismal until recently for
many. (NoGnus is a LOT better).

> ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
> can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
> server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
> machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
> that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?

So you can access email offline too? have local indexing? As for all the
firewalling etc, erm, are you not over complicating it a little. Simply
dont provide any external login. Or do. For you.

>
> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set

Should? This is Emacs and Gnus ..

> that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email

Thunderbird isn't Gnus.

> client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will

Gnus is never a 10 minute tops. My suggestions were merely to inform :
not to complicate. There is currently an initiative going on in no Gnus
to provide simpler set up. Something with the power of Gnus will always
be more complicated with such a simple entry level reader/client as
Thunderbird.

> be that good some day.  Apparently it isn't there yet.  I really wish it
> was... believe me, I'd love to use emacs for my email.  Maybe in a few
> years a really good, savvy, customer-oriented, and thorough emacs
> developer or two will get involved and we'll finally get it.
>

So let my get this straight? You dont even use Emacs for your email and
you are commenting on performance? I'm a little confused as to why you
think your experience using a different client has any relation to
fetching IMAP with Gnus in Emacs. FWIW, I do agree with you that it
could and should be easier to set up with such common servers as google
provides.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Richard Riley]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
>
>> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>>> 
>>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>>> gnus is installed.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Rudiger
>>>>
>>> 
>>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>>
>> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
>> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
>> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  
>
> I do have it running off the remote server now. However, it's noticeably
> slower than Thunderbird - often several seconds delay while moving
> messages between folders or rescanning new mail. On Thunderbird, with
> a

Get NoGnus from Git : major IMAP speed up. That said I still recommend a
local Dovecot server. Why not? The overhead is little and its just so
much faster AND you have your email when offline. Dovecot stores as
Maildir too.

> local message repository, there is also a delay, but it's shorter and
> doesn't lock the entire application up. So I may still go the extra
> effort to set up a local server.
>
>> Moreover, using the remote server (my ISP's) allows me to access my
>> email from anywhere in the world where I can get an internet
>> connection. Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS server... and of
>> course secured and firewalled it... and put those machines on a UPS
>> and performed regular backups. But why go through all that when the
>> ISP (or other organization) does it for free?
>
> I assume I could set up a local server that would mirror, rather than
> download, the remote server? Thunderbird is set up to download all my

It would/could be fed using offlineimap which connects to your imap
servers and does a bi-directional sync.

http://sachachua.com/blog/2008/05/geek-how-to-use-offlineimap-and-the-dovecot-mail-server-to-read-your-gmail-in-emacs-efficiently/
http://tinyurl.com/26cwmok


> messages off of the remote server, but it doesn't delete anything. So I
> get the advantage of local speed, plus I can access the server from
> other machines anywhere else. I'd like to have that with gnus,
> eventually. 

And you can. Its why IMAP is used. When read from one client offlineimap
will sync it and it will appear read on others that sync that way too -
but you will still have a copy on your other clients or on the server.

>
>>
>> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
>> that up... 
>
> *should* being the operative word, of course. I'm still ironing out
>  issues after several hours of reading manuals, googling and prowling
>  mailing lists. Granted, the initial connection to the IMAP server
>  probably was accomplished in less than a single hour.
>
> Thanks to all for your comments!
>
> Tyler
>

Keep at it. Gnus is a bugger to configure. But when you get there it
repays you in spades.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[ken]

On 12/27/2010 10:44 AM Richard Riley wrote:
> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
> 
>> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>>>
>>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>>> gnus is installed.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Rudiger
>>>>
>>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
>> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
>> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server
>> (my
> 
> Possibly for you. Gnus IMAP performance was dismal until recently for
> many. (NoGnus is a LOT better).

Read again.  I wasn't comparing thunderbird to gnus.  To repeat what I
said in another way: Even if thunderbird was faster, I wouldn't really
notice the difference because it's virtually instantaneous now.  I click
on a message I want to read and it appears.  Same when I delete a
message... I hit the Delete key or click on Delete and the message is
gone-- immediately.  Efforts at increasing speed eventually yield
diminishing returns.

Can NoGnus multitask... perform more than one email client operation at
a time?  Back when I used it, gnus couldn't.  Really disappointing.


> 
>> ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
>> can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
>> server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
>> machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
>> that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?
> 
> So you can access email offline too? have local indexing? As for all the
> firewalling etc, erm, are you not over complicating it a little. Simply
> dont provide any external login. Or do. For you.

I'm always connected, so for me there's no such thing as "offline" and
so no need to access email at a non-existent moment.  Yes, tbird has
13x3x2 indexing built in, selectable with a few mouse clicks (or key
chords, if that's preferred).  In addition, Thunderbird has lots of ways
to automatically filter, flag, and colorize mail, automatically mark or
colorize mail or move it from any place/folder/account to any other, all
easily configurable how the user wants.  All really sweet additions to
indexing.  And I don't need to have local copies of any mail to do
indexing or all these other functions (though they'd all work exactly
the same if I was using a local server).

I guess you could say it's a choice whether to have a firewall or not.
If you believe a password is sufficient security for your system(s),
good luck with that.  But you might want to have a look at the
latest/recent CERT announcement; there's a pretty wicked vulnerability
in SSL.  And it's probably not going to be the last one.  So, for me
anyway, hardening and firewalling systems perpetually connected to the
internet and taking other measures previously mentioned to maintain
functionality aren't "over complicating".  Indeed they're routine in the
enterprise and other places where security matters.


> 
>> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
> 
> Should? This is Emacs and Gnus ..

Which is my point.


> 
>> that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email
> 
> Thunderbird isn't Gnus.

True that.


> 
>> client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will
> 
> Gnus is never a 10 minute tops. My suggestions were merely to inform :
> not to complicate. 

Well, good, that wasn't your intention.


> There is currently an initiative going on in no Gnus
> to provide simpler set up. Something with the power of Gnus will always
> be more complicated with such a simple entry level reader/client as
> Thunderbird.

Simple?  Entry level?  I've used at least a dozen different email
clients over the years (including gnus) and haven't found one better
than-- or even as good as-- thunderbird.  What specific features or
capabilities would you imagine should be added to thunderbird?


> 
>> be that good some day.  Apparently it isn't there yet.  I really wish it
>> was... believe me, I'd love to use emacs for my email.  Maybe in a few
>> years a really good, savvy, customer-oriented, and thorough emacs
>> developer or two will get involved and we'll finally get it.
>>
> 
> So let my get this straight? You dont even use Emacs for your email and
> you are commenting on performance? I'm a little confused as to why you
> think your experience using a different client has any relation to
> fetching IMAP with Gnus in Emacs. 

You don't have it "straight" at all.  I have in fact used gnus in the
past.  It was even my fav back when I had just one POP account.  Now I
have eight or ten email accounts from three different remote servers all
using IMAPS.  Gnus might/maybe/possibly be able to handle all that, but
I haven't been able to set that up (I once spent a week trying) and
nobody's been able to tell me how.  As I said in my previous post, I'd
love to be able to use emacs for email.  But the current state of the
technology simply isn't conducive to doing that.  I could drop my
current laptop in the middle of the ocean, buy a new one, do a full
linux install and configuration on it, thunderbird included, and be
reading all my email from all my accounts again just as before and with
no email lost-- all in less time than I spent trying unsuccessfully to
set up gnus.  How is this a tough decision?


> FWIW, I do agree with you that it
> could and should be easier to set up with such common servers as google
> provides.

Good!  This is what the discussion should be about.

Gnus/Emacs should be able to set up all my various accounts in something
like the emacs Customization menus... for a variable number of email
accounts on both local and remote servers.  When gnus or some other
emacs extension can do that and the other stuff thunderbird can do-- and
multitask all email client operations, then I'll switch.  Somebody let
me know when that happens.

Don't get me wrong.  Emacs as an editor is great-- the best available
for any price.  I started using it in 1986 and though vi is handy in
some circumstances, I only use something else when somebody pays me to.
 I once worked at a place where the boss told everybody to use vi and
nothing else.  Well, I gave a couple colleagues a run-through of emacs
for maybe a half hour, people who were longtime and unrepentant vi
fanatics.  I blew them away so thoroughly that word got back to the
boss-- a bulldog of a bastard-- and a couple days later he ordered
everybody in the whole department to learn emacs.  (Not everybody did,
but that's their misfortune.)  I've been advocating for emacs for a long
time to anyone with ears to hear.  Not so gnus though... for me to use
it is going to take a bit more work.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Richard Riley]

ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:

> On 12/27/2010 10:44 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>>>> gnus is installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Rudiger
>>>>>
>>>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>>>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>>> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
>>> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
>>> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server
>>> (my
>> 
>> Possibly for you. Gnus IMAP performance was dismal until recently for
>> many. (NoGnus is a LOT better).
>
> Read again.  I wasn't comparing thunderbird to gnus.  To repeat what I

No, you werent even saying anything about Gnus other than that its hard
to configure and Thunderbird is better (in your view)t. I was explaining
how to get a fast Gnus with IMAP and you just seemed to want to say Gnus
is rubbish compared to Thunderbird. For you use case possibly it is. But
the Qs were about Emacs mail clients.

> said in another way: Even if thunderbird was faster, I wouldn't really
> notice the difference because it's virtually instantaneous now.  I
> click

We were talking about Gnus.

> on a message I want to read and it appears.  Same when I delete a
> message... I hit the Delete key or click on Delete and the message is
> gone-- immediately.  Efforts at increasing speed eventually yield
> diminishing returns.

I'm not sure of the relevance. We were talking about Gnus.

>
> Can NoGnus multitask... perform more than one email client operation at
> a time?  Back when I used it, gnus couldn't.  Really disappointing.

When did multitasking etc even come into it? This wasnt a discussion
comparing Thunderbird to Gnus. If you like Thunderbird then fine : it's
a nice easy to use client.

FWIW, using the setup I mentioned everything is instant. Along with the
benefits I already outlined. Not least of which it is hosted by Emacs.

>
>> 
>>> ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
>>> can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
>>> server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
>>> machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
>>> that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?
>> 
>> So you can access email offline too? have local indexing? As for all the
>> firewalling etc, erm, are you not over complicating it a little. Simply
>> dont provide any external login. Or do. For you.
>
> I'm always connected, so for me there's no such thing as "offline" and
> so no need to access email at a non-existent moment.  Yes, tbird has

Thats nice. But I was replying to the OP. Him and I and others are not
always on line I'll bet. For many people there is such a thing as
offline. Particularly on laptops. And thats another nice feature of Gnus
and a local imap server. All your mail is there and instant AND if you
use the Gnus Agent all your nntp news too.

> 13x3x2 indexing built in, selectable with a few mouse clicks (or key
> chords, if that's preferred).  In addition, Thunderbird has lots of ways
> to automatically filter, flag, and colorize mail, automatically mark or
> colorize mail or move it from any place/folder/account to any other, all
> easily configurable how the user wants.  All really sweet additions to
> indexing.  And I don't need to have local copies of any mail to do
> indexing or all these other functions (though they'd all work exactly
> the same if I was using a local server).
>
> I guess you could say it's a choice whether to have a firewall or not.
> If you believe a password is sufficient security for your system(s),
> good luck with that.  But you might want to have a look at the
> latest/recent CERT announcement; there's a pretty wicked vulnerability
> in SSL.  And it's probably not going to be the last one.  So, for me
> anyway, hardening and firewalling systems perpetually connected to the
> internet and taking other measures previously mentioned to maintain
> functionality aren't "over complicating".  Indeed they're routine in the
> enterprise and other places where security matters.

You are aware you dont have to open your local dovecot server to anyone
aren't you?

>
>> 
>>> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>>>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
>> 
>> Should? This is Emacs and Gnus ..
>
> Which is my point.
>
>> 
>>> that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email
>> 
>> Thunderbird isn't Gnus.
>
> True that.
>
>> 
>>> client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will
>> 
>> Gnus is never a 10 minute tops. My suggestions were merely to inform :
>> not to complicate. 
>
> Well, good, that wasn't your intention.
>
>> There is currently an initiative going on in no Gnus
>> to provide simpler set up. Something with the power of Gnus will always
>> be more complicated with such a simple entry level reader/client as
>> Thunderbird.
>
> Simple?  Entry level?  I've used at least a dozen different email
> clients over the years (including gnus) and haven't found one better
> than-- or even as good as-- thunderbird.  What specific features or
> capabilities would you imagine should be added to thunderbird?


That fact you ask that means you dont know Gnus.

Look, I get a feeling your trying to start a Thunderbird v Gnus flame
fest here. So I'll drop out ;) Good luck with your Thunderbird but,
again, I'm not quite sure how your Thunderbird set up in your always
online world has any relevance to someone asking questions about Emacs
mail clients.

regards

r.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[ken]

On 12/28/2010 10:57 AM Richard Riley wrote:
> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
> 
>> On 12/27/2010 10:44 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>>>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>>>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>>>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>>>>> gnus is installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Rudiger
>>>>>>
>>>>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>>>>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>>>> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
>>>> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
>>>> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server
>>>> (my
>>> Possibly for you. Gnus IMAP performance was dismal until recently for
>>> many. (NoGnus is a LOT better).
>> Read again.  I wasn't comparing thunderbird to gnus.  To repeat what I
> 
> No, you werent even saying anything about Gnus other than that its hard
> to configure and Thunderbird is better (in your view)t. I was explaining
> how to get a fast Gnus with IMAP and you just seemed to want to say Gnus
> is rubbish compared to Thunderbird. For you use case possibly it is. But
> the Qs were about Emacs mail clients.
> 
>> said in another way: Even if thunderbird was faster, I wouldn't really
>> notice the difference because it's virtually instantaneous now.  I
>> click
> 
> We were talking about Gnus.

Look at the Subject line (which I didn't create).


> 
>> on a message I want to read and it appears.  Same when I delete a
>> message... I hit the Delete key or click on Delete and the message is
>> gone-- immediately.  Efforts at increasing speed eventually yield
>> diminishing returns.
> 
> I'm not sure of the relevance. We were talking about Gnus.
> 
>> Can NoGnus multitask... perform more than one email client operation at
>> a time?  Back when I used it, gnus couldn't.  Really disappointing.
> 
> When did multitasking etc even come into it? This wasnt a discussion
> comparing Thunderbird to Gnus. If you like Thunderbird then fine : it's
> a nice easy to use client.

Multitasking bears considerable relevance to performance.  From
<http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GettingMail>:

"Note: The whole Emacs process is blocked during mail retrieval if Emacs
does it itself. So if you are downloading large mails and tend to use
Emacs for almost everything, you lose the multitasking features of your
environment."

Back when I used gnus this was a significant pain as it happened often
and for considerable length of time... often several seconds, sometimes
longer.


> 
> FWIW, using the setup I mentioned everything is instant. Along with the
> benefits I already outlined. Not least of which it is hosted by Emacs.
> 
>>>> ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
>>>> can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
>>>> server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
>>>> machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
>>>> that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?
>>> So you can access email offline too? have local indexing? As for all the
>>> firewalling etc, erm, are you not over complicating it a little. Simply
>>> dont provide any external login. Or do. For you.
>> I'm always connected, so for me there's no such thing as "offline" and
>> so no need to access email at a non-existent moment.  Yes, tbird has
> 
> Thats nice. But I was replying to the OP. Him and I and others are not
> always on line I'll bet. For many people there is such a thing as
> offline. Particularly on laptops. And thats another nice feature of Gnus
> and a local imap server. All your mail is there and instant AND if you
> use the Gnus Agent all your nntp news too.

I guess I thought you knew more about thunderbird than you do... that
you already it works offline just fine.  (It does.)  You don't seem to
know much about it as I was assuming you did.


> 
>> 13x3x2 indexing built in, selectable with a few mouse clicks (or key
>> chords, if that's preferred).  In addition, Thunderbird has lots of ways
>> to automatically filter, flag, and colorize mail, automatically mark or
>> colorize mail or move it from any place/folder/account to any other, all
>> easily configurable how the user wants.  All really sweet additions to
>> indexing.  And I don't need to have local copies of any mail to do
>> indexing or all these other functions (though they'd all work exactly
>> the same if I was using a local server).
>>
>> I guess you could say it's a choice whether to have a firewall or not.
>> If you believe a password is sufficient security for your system(s),
>> good luck with that.  But you might want to have a look at the
>> latest/recent CERT announcement; there's a pretty wicked vulnerability
>> in SSL.  And it's probably not going to be the last one.  So, for me
>> anyway, hardening and firewalling systems perpetually connected to the
>> internet and taking other measures previously mentioned to maintain
>> functionality aren't "over complicating".  Indeed they're routine in the
>> enterprise and other places where security matters.
> 
> You are aware you dont have to open your local dovecot server to anyone
> aren't you?

You speak as if it's nothing more than a matter of wishing.  If I'm on
the road and the server is at home, then to get my mail I have to
connect to the server over the internet.  Or if I run the server on my
laptop, still, it must be connected to the internet.  Either way, this
means that the server must be connected to the internet.  This means
it's exposed.  Again, in this scenario just a password is not sufficient
security.


> 
>>>> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>>>>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
>>> Should? This is Emacs and Gnus ..
>> Which is my point.
>>
>>>> that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email
>>> Thunderbird isn't Gnus.
>> True that.
>>
>>>> client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will
>>> Gnus is never a 10 minute tops. My suggestions were merely to inform :
>>> not to complicate. 
>> Well, good, that wasn't your intention.
>>
>>> There is currently an initiative going on in no Gnus
>>> to provide simpler set up. Something with the power of Gnus will always
>>> be more complicated with such a simple entry level reader/client as
>>> Thunderbird.
>> Simple?  Entry level?  I've used at least a dozen different email
>> clients over the years (including gnus) and haven't found one better
>> than-- or even as good as-- thunderbird.  What specific features or
>> capabilities would you imagine should be added to thunderbird?
> 
> 
> That fact you ask that means you dont know Gnus.

Wow!  I asked a completely reasonable question (in response to your
inaccurate assessments).  There's no reason for you to go ad hominem.
If you don't have an answer, that's fine.


> 
> Look, I get a feeling your trying to start a Thunderbird v Gnus flame
> fest here. 

Seriously?  Reread the whole thread:
<http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2010-12/msg03088.html>.


> So I'll drop out ;) 

Good idea.  I'm done too.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> ken <gebser@mousecar.com>:

>> You are aware you dont have to open your local dovecot server to
>> anyone aren't you?

> You speak as if it's nothing more than a matter of wishing.  If I'm on
> the road and the server is at home, then to get my mail I have to
> connect to the server over the internet.  Or if I run the server on my
> laptop, still, it must be connected to the internet.  Either way, this
> means that the server must be connected to the internet.  This means
> it's exposed.  Again, in this scenario just a password is not
> sufficient security.

I believe at least gnus can run the dovecot executable in a subprocess
and talk IMAP over pipes.  So in that case there needs to be no daemon
listening to ports, and there needs to be no authentication (dovecot is
a process running with the user's privileges, accessing Maildir folders
under the user's home directory).

Not sure how well that approach will work with other IMAP clients on the
same computer, though.

Caveat: I don't use a local dovecot and offlineimap.  I use Gnus with
        nnimap+agent

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Get NoGnus from Git : major IMAP speed up. That said I still recommend a
> local Dovecot server. Why not? The overhead is little and its just so
> much faster AND you have your email when offline. Dovecot stores as
> Maildir too.

Where do I find NoGnus? Is that just the development version of gnus
downloaded from the git repo? Is that necessary if I'm already using the
a developmental bzr version of Emacs (24.0.50.1) which comes with Gnus
v5.13?

> Keep at it. Gnus is a bugger to configure. But when you get there it
> repays you in spades.

No kidding. Two steps forward, three steps back. If I don't get this
running semi-smoothly soon I'll be out of time for this latest attempt.
It's a nice idea, but when config time runs over multiple hours for a
mail reader, it's going to take months of super-efficiency to compensate
for the lost time.

Cheers,

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Richard Riley]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Get NoGnus from Git : major IMAP speed up. That said I still recommend a
>> local Dovecot server. Why not? The overhead is little and its just so
>> much faster AND you have your email when offline. Dovecot stores as
>> Maildir too.
>
> Where do I find NoGnus? Is that just the development version of gnus
> downloaded from the git repo? Is that necessary if I'm already using the
> a developmental bzr version of Emacs (24.0.50.1) which comes with Gnus
> v5.13?

No idea. I dont even know why its called NoGnus. It is confusing :
you're not alone there.

>
>> Keep at it. Gnus is a bugger to configure. But when you get there it
>> repays you in spades.
>
> No kidding. Two steps forward, three steps back. If I don't get this
> running semi-smoothly soon I'll be out of time for this latest attempt.
> It's a nice idea, but when config time runs over multiple hours for a
> mail reader, it's going to take months of super-efficiency to compensate
> for the lost time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tyler

Heh. I had splitting working for ages and have now given up again. The
splitting (spam-split) Gurus seem to be away on holidays.

As for NoGnus, yeah even finding that can be fraught as there seem to be
a few about. Here is where I cloned from:

http://git.gnus.org/

In case its not mentioned there, you need to set your path to this clone
and then also call

  (load "gnus-load")  ;; Needed if using  nognus.


Good luck!

r.

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tassilo Horn]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

Hi Tyler,

> Where do I find NoGnus? Is that just the development version of gnus
> downloaded from the git repo? Is that necessary if I'm already using
> the a developmental bzr version of Emacs (24.0.50.1) which comes with
> Gnus v5.13?

The version that comes with the development version of emacs is
regularly synchronized with the Gnus development repository.  So it's
pretty much the same at this point in time.  In particular, it includes
the new nnimap version.

> No kidding.  Two steps forward, three steps back.  If I don't get this
> running semi-smoothly soon I'll be out of time for this latest
> attempt.

I didn't follow the threads, but maybe you are trying to do too much at
once?  Setting up Gnus for a few imap accounts is pretty easy:

,----[ (info "(gnus)Connecting to an IMAP Server") ]
| Connecting to an IMAP can be very easy.  Type `B' in the group buffer,
| or (if your primary interest is reading email), say something like:
| 
|      (setq gnus-select-method
|            '(nnimap "imap.gmail.com"))
| 
|    You'll be prompted for a user name and password.  If you grow tired
| of that, then add the following to your `~/.authinfo' file:
| 
|      machine imap.gmail.com login <username> password <password> port imap
| 
|    That should basically be it for most users.
`----

When that's done, then you might want to configure some posting styles
and parameters:

  (info "(gnus)Posting Styles")
  (info "(gnus)Group Parameters")

Basically, that's all to get a fully functional Gnus for reading mail.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
>> Where do I find NoGnus? Is that just the development version of gnus
>> downloaded from the git repo? Is that necessary if I'm already using
>> the a developmental bzr version of Emacs (24.0.50.1) which comes with
>> Gnus v5.13?
>
> The version that comes with the development version of emacs is
> regularly synchronized with the Gnus development repository.  So it's
> pretty much the same at this point in time.  In particular, it includes
> the new nnimap version.

Ok, that's good. The new nnimap is still pretty slow on my machine, so I
may look into setting up a local imap server.

>> No kidding.  Two steps forward, three steps back.  If I don't get this
>> running semi-smoothly soon I'll be out of time for this latest
>> attempt.
>
> I didn't follow the threads, but maybe you are trying to do too much at
> once?  Setting up Gnus for a few imap accounts is pretty easy:

Yes, getting the actual IMAP set up was easy enough. I assumed that was
under control and proceeded to investigate splitting, which remains a
mystery. At one point I got the idea that maybe splitting only works for
the primary server, so I tried switching the nnimap server from the
secondary select method to the main select method, moving nntp to the
secondary select method. In the process, gnus lost most of my IMAP
folders. They're still there, but remained invisible (not killed or
zombified) until I updated emacs to the latest bzr version this morning.

> When that's done, then you might want to configure some posting styles
> and parameters:
>
>   (info "(gnus)Posting Styles")

I have a single posting style set up, so that my outgoing messages get
associated with my main email, not gmail.

>   (info "(gnus)Group Parameters")

Will look into this.

> Basically, that's all to get a fully functional Gnus for reading mail.

I suppose, but the payoff is supposed to be something that does
everything Thunderbird does and more, and my 'fully functional' system
doesn't yet have the filtering/splitting capacity that Thunderbird comes
with. I'll stick with it, because I like using Emacs generally. But I
couldn't recommend this to anyone who wasn't already an Emacs junky.

Cheers,

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>>
>> I didn't follow the threads, but maybe you are trying to do too much at
>> once?  Setting up Gnus for a few imap accounts is pretty easy:
>
[...]

>
>> Basically, that's all to get a fully functional Gnus for reading mail.

Latest issue, every time I start up gnus, it forgets the status of every
folder on the imap. Instead of listing the number of unread messages, I
get an *. Maybe that's not a big deal on it's own, but I am unable to
manually move messages to any of these folders. So if I find something
in my INBOX that should be moved to another folder, I have to quit the
INBOX, move to the destination folder, enter that folder, exit out
again, move back to the INBOX, and then move the message manually. I
can't 'catch-up' any of the folders until after I've entered them, and
as I said above, I have to repeat this whole process the next time I
start gnus.

This is beyond ridiculous. I'll try again in another year and
see if I'm smart enough for gnus then.


Here's my complete configuration for gnus, for posterity:

(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnimap "my.server.edu")))

(defun my-gnus-summary-hook ()
  (local-set-key "t" 'gnus-summary-mark-as-processable))

(add-hook 'gnus-summary-mode-hook 'my-gnus-summary-hook)
(add-hook 'gnus-group-mode-hook 'gnus-topic-mode)

(setq gnus-posting-styles
       '(("*"    ; Matches all groups of messages
          (address "my.email.address")
          (name "my name"))))

(setq nnimap-split-inbox "INBOX")
(setq nnimap-split-predicate "UNDELETED")

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[ken]

On 12/31/2010 01:57 PM Tyler Smith wrote:
> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
> 
>> Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>>> I didn't follow the threads, but maybe you are trying to do too much at
>>> once?  Setting up Gnus for a few imap accounts is pretty easy:
> [...]
> 
>>> Basically, that's all to get a fully functional Gnus for reading mail.
> 
> Latest issue, every time I start up gnus, it forgets the status of every
> folder on the imap. Instead of listing the number of unread messages, I
> get an *. Maybe that's not a big deal on it's own, but I am unable to
> manually move messages to any of these folders. So if I find something
> in my INBOX that should be moved to another folder, I have to quit the
> INBOX, move to the destination folder, enter that folder, exit out
> again, move back to the INBOX, and then move the message manually. I
> can't 'catch-up' any of the folders until after I've entered them, and
> as I said above, I have to repeat this whole process the next time I
> start gnus.
> 
> This is beyond ridiculous. I'll try again in another year and
> see if I'm smart enough for gnus then.

QED.


> ....

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> Latest issue, every time I start up gnus, it forgets the status of every
> folder on the imap. Instead of listing the number of unread messages, I
> get an *.

That's odd.  Does `M-g' on a group activate it?  What's the output when
`G E'-ing one of these "*" groups?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tassilo Horn]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

Hi Tyler,

>> I didn't follow the threads, but maybe you are trying to do too much
>> at once?  Setting up Gnus for a few imap accounts is pretty easy:
>
> Yes, getting the actual IMAP set up was easy enough. I assumed that
> was under control and proceeded to investigate splitting, which
> remains a mystery.

Hm, I prefer server-side splitting, so sadly I don't have any hints
concerning splitting in IMAP...

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tassilo Horn]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

Hi Tyler,

> (defun my-gnus-summary-hook ()
>   (local-set-key "t" 'gnus-summary-mark-as-processable))

Is `#' not short enough?

> (setq gnus-posting-styles
>        '(("*"    ; Matches all groups of messages
            ^^^      No. ;-)

The regexp "*" matches only strings containing an asterisk, although
that's more or less a coincidence.  Basically, it's an invalid regular
expression: * means "the character or group preceeding the * may occure
zero or many times".

Ok, what I wanted to say: you want ".*" above. :-)

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Richard Riley]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
> Hi Tyler,
>
>>> I didn't follow the threads, but maybe you are trying to do too much
>>> at once?  Setting up Gnus for a few imap accounts is pretty easy:
>>
>> Yes, getting the actual IMAP set up was easy enough. I assumed that
>> was under control and proceeded to investigate splitting, which
>> remains a mystery.
>
> Hm, I prefer server-side splitting, so sadly I don't have any hints
> concerning splitting in IMAP...
>

The nognus mailing list  has a lot of discussions about splitting and
that would be a good place to ask. Splitting is a dark science - my
spam-split rules currently dont work ;(

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
> Hi Tyler,
>
>> (defun my-gnus-summary-hook ()
>>   (local-set-key "t" 'gnus-summary-mark-as-processable))
>
> Is `#' not short enough?

Two fingers vs 1, and I have stubby fingers that have to work harder
than they should to get to the shift key ;)

>
>> (setq gnus-posting-styles
>>        '(("*"    ; Matches all groups of messages
>             ^^^      No. ;-)
>
> The regexp "*" matches only strings containing an asterisk, although
> that's more or less a coincidence.  Basically, it's an invalid regular
> expression: * means "the character or group preceeding the * may occure
> zero or many times".
>
> Ok, what I wanted to say: you want ".*" above. :-)

Odd, it works anyways. I'm ascared to change anything at this point, but
I suppose I'd better try.

Thanks,

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <lmi@gnus.org> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
>> Latest issue, every time I start up gnus, it forgets the status of every
>> folder on the imap. Instead of listing the number of unread messages, I
>> get an *.
>
> That's odd.  Does `M-g' on a group activate it?  What's the output when
> `G E'-ing one of these "*" groups?

M-g activates the group, but it doesn't stay activated - it has to be
re-activated the next time I start gnus.

G E produced the following:

("nnimap+ekumail.eku.edu:service/peer review" 3 nil nil
"nnimap:ekumail.eku.edu")

Thanks,

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> G E produced the following:
>
> ("nnimap+ekumail.eku.edu:service/peer review" 3 nil nil
> "nnimap:ekumail.eku.edu")

So the group is on level three.  You haven't altered gnus-activate-level
or any of the other -level variables? 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Tyler Smith]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <lmi@gnus.org> writes:

> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>
>> G E produced the following:
>>
>> ("nnimap+ekumail.eku.edu:service/peer review" 3 nil nil
>> "nnimap:ekumail.eku.edu")
>
> So the group is on level three.  You haven't altered gnus-activate-level
> or any of the other -level variables? 

Not deliberately. grep tells me there's nothing in my .emacs.d that I
haven't already reported, except for gnus-group-line-format and
gnus-server-line-format being customized.

Tyler

Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:

> Not deliberately. grep tells me there's nothing in my .emacs.d that I
> haven't already reported, except for gnus-group-line-format and
> gnus-server-line-format being customized.

Hm.  That should probably not matter...

Sorry, I'm out of ideas about what could be causing this.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen