Re: key map entry for shift-return?

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Xah Lee]

On Jul 8, 2:31 am, Chris Withers <ch...@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> What's the key map entry for shift-return?
> (as in the one for just return is "\C-m")

this is a weak point in emacs. For detail, see:

• The Confusion of Emacs's Keystroke Representation
  http://xahlee.org/emacs/keystroke_rep.html

several people have given you answer on how to represent shift-return.

i wanted to add that, key combo like Shift Return is better avoided,
because there's another complexity in emacs with the Enter/Return key,
somewhat tied to Ctrl+m in complex ways. The upshot is that when
trying to define keys with return, you migth run into all sort of
problems or puzzles.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Xah!

In gnu.emacs.help Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 2:31?am, Chris Withers <ch...@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi All,

>> What's the key map entry for shift-return?
>> (as in the one for just return is "\C-m")

> this is a weak point in emacs. For detail, see:

> ? The Confusion of Emacs's Keystroke Representation
>  http://xahlee.org/emacs/keystroke_rep.html

> several people have given you answer on how to represent shift-return.

> i wanted to add that, key combo like Shift Return is better avoided,
> because there's another complexity in emacs with the Enter/Return key,
> somewhat tied to Ctrl+m in complex ways. The upshot is that when
> trying to define keys with return, you might run into all sort of
> problems or puzzles.

Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
this other complexity is.

Thanks!

>  Xah

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Miles Bader]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
> for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
> this other complexity is.

He's just looking for an excuse to flog his screeds...

-Miles

-- 
Bore, n. A person who talks when you wish him to listen.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Xah Lee]

On Jul 9, 7:27 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> writes:
> > Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
> > for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
> > this other complexity is.
>
> He's just looking for an excuse to flog his screeds...

Thanks Miles. ^_^

Well, perhaps just a sentence or two to answer Alan.

Basically, for good or bad, emacs does not capture the key by itself,
but goes thru ascii representation in its implementation... my
phrasing here is not exactl but don't want to spend too much time
writing this. Basically, the end result is that when people want to
map keys like Tab, Return, or with modifiers, it has many
complexities. Many threads asked or discussed these in the past year
or two here.... another example comes to mind is that emacs is unable
to capture Ctrl+Shift+key combos in terminal. Perhaps historically
justifiable... but today's apps that goes thru network don't have this
limitation...

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[despen]

Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:

> On Jul 9, 7:27 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> writes:
>> > Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
>> > for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
>> > this other complexity is.
>>
>> He's just looking for an excuse to flog his screeds...
>
> Well, perhaps just a sentence or two to answer Alan.
>
> Basically, for good or bad, emacs does not capture the key by itself,
> but goes thru ascii representation in its implementation... my
> phrasing here is not exactl but don't want to spend too much time
> writing this. Basically, the end result is that when people want to
> map keys like Tab, Return, or with modifiers, it has many
> complexities. Many threads asked or discussed these in the past year
> or two here.... another example comes to mind is that emacs is unable
> to capture Ctrl+Shift+key combos in terminal. Perhaps historically
> justifiable... but today's apps that goes thru network don't have this
> limitation...

I'm not sure what this is all about, I never saw the original post.
But binding something to shift return doesn't seem to be a big problem.
Try evaling this:

(define-key global-map [(S-return)] 'compile)

It works for me.

I don't expect it would work in a TTY, but that's an issue with the TTY
not emacs.  For some TTY programs even that can be fixed.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Xah Lee]

On Jul 9, 10:21 am, des...@verizon.net wrote:
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Jul 9, 7:27 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> writes:
> >> > Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
> >> > for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
> >> > this other complexity is.
>
> >> He's just looking for an excuse to flog his screeds...
>
> > Well, perhaps just a sentence or two to answer Alan.
>
> > Basically, for good or bad, emacs does not capture the key by itself,
> > but goes thru ascii representation in its implementation... my
> > phrasing here is not exactl but don't want to spend too much time
> > writing this. Basically, the end result is that when people want to
> > map keys like Tab, Return, or with modifiers, it has many
> > complexities. Many threads asked or discussed these in the past year
> > or two here.... another example comes to mind is that emacs is unable
> > to capture Ctrl+Shift+key combos in terminal. Perhaps historically
> > justifiable... but today's apps that goes thru network don't have this
> > limitation...
>
> I'm not sure what this is all about, I never saw the original post.
> But binding something to shift return doesn't seem to be a big problem.
> Try evaling this:
>
> (define-key global-map [(S-return)] 'compile)
>
> It works for me.
>
> I don't expect it would work in a TTY, but that's an issue with the TTY
> not emacs.  For some TTY programs even that can be fixed.

Yes. That touches the point.

here's a example to illustarte what i was saying:

Try:
(define-key global-map (kbd "RET") 'forward-word)

now press Ctrl+m, you see that it also does forward-word.

To a emacs geek, perhaps this is natural, however, to any average
programer or logically, pressing Return key certainly is not the same
as pressing Ctrl+m.

This is what i was saying about keybindings involving Return, Tab (and
few others) has some rather unexpected complexities in emacs, and, i
was saying, these complexities has to do with how emacs implemented
the key capture, and i was saying that in modern apps, usually they
don't have this problem.

emacs being a old app, is what it is. I'm trying to communicate a few
facts here as mentioned by this thread.

This emacs issue, certainly is not optimal. I don't know if it is
worthy a fix. But i feel it should be known.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[despen]

Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:

> On Jul 9, 10:21 am, des...@verizon.net wrote:
>> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > On Jul 9, 7:27 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> >> Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> writes:
>> >> > Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
>> >> > for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
>> >> > this other complexity is.
>>
>> >> He's just looking for an excuse to flog his screeds...
>>
>> > Well, perhaps just a sentence or two to answer Alan.
>>
>> > Basically, for good or bad, emacs does not capture the key by itself,
>> > but goes thru ascii representation in its implementation... my
>> > phrasing here is not exactl but don't want to spend too much time
>> > writing this. Basically, the end result is that when people want to
>> > map keys like Tab, Return, or with modifiers, it has many
>> > complexities. Many threads asked or discussed these in the past year
>> > or two here.... another example comes to mind is that emacs is unable
>> > to capture Ctrl+Shift+key combos in terminal. Perhaps historically
>> > justifiable... but today's apps that goes thru network don't have this
>> > limitation...
>>
>> I'm not sure what this is all about, I never saw the original post.
>> But binding something to shift return doesn't seem to be a big problem.
>> Try evaling this:
>>
>> (define-key global-map [(S-return)] 'compile)
>>
>> It works for me.
>>
>> I don't expect it would work in a TTY, but that's an issue with the TTY
>> not emacs.  For some TTY programs even that can be fixed.
>
> Yes. That touches the point.
>
> here's a example to illustarte what i was saying:
>
> Try:
> (define-key global-map (kbd "RET") 'forward-word)

I can't find anywhere in the documentation where emacs recommends using
KBD to define keys:

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Init-Rebinding.html#Init-Rebinding

"When the key sequence includes function keys or mouse button events, or
non-ASCII characters such  as C-= or H-a, you must  use the more general
method of rebinding, which uses a vector to specify the key sequence.

The way to  write a vector in Emacs Lisp is  with square brackets around
the vector elements."

Which is exactly what I did.  I typed C-h k Shift Return
and emacs told me I typed "S-return".  The process seemed to work
perfectly.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Despen!

In gnu.emacs.help despen@verizon.net wrote:
> Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:

>> On Jul 9, 7:27 am, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
>>> Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> writes:
>>> > Hey, stop being so enigmatic!  I think the OP only wants Shift Return
>>> > for his own use, which should be OK.  So please tell him (and me) what
>>> > this other complexity is.

>> Well, perhaps just a sentence or two to answer Alan.

>> Basically, for good or bad, emacs does not capture the key by itself,
>> but goes thru ascii representation in its implementation...

It's not quite as simple as that, actually.  ;-)

>> my phrasing here is not exact but don't want to spend too much time
>> writing this. Basically, the end result is that when people want to
>> map keys like Tab, Return, or with modifiers, it has many
>> complexities.

Thanks for being so exact about this, Xah!  ;-)

>> Many threads asked or discussed these in the past year
>> or two here.... another example comes to mind is that emacs is unable
>> to capture Ctrl+Shift+key combos in terminal.

It is on my terminal, a Linux tty with a suitable keyboard layout.  I
just wish the Linux guys would have the courage to make standard keyboard
layouts with unique codes for every modified key combination.

>> Perhaps historically justifiable... but today's apps that goes thru
>> network don't have this limitation...

> I'm not sure what this is all about, I never saw the original post.
> But binding something to shift return doesn't seem to be a big problem.
> Try evaling this:

> (define-key global-map [(S-return)] 'compile)

> It works for me.

:-)  Then feel free to use it.

> I don't expect it would work in a TTY, but that's an issue with the TTY
> not emacs.  For some TTY programs even that can be fixed.

It can be fixed for Emacs running on a tty, as indeed I have fixed mine.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 09.07.2009 um 20:02 schrieb Alan Mackenzie:

> It can be fixed for Emacs running on a tty, as indeed I have fixed  
> mine.

Is this fix *very* specific? If it can be used in many terminal  
emulations on many operating systems by many users, then it's really  
worth to become part of GNU Emacs – or is it 'just' X resources? Then  
it's worth to become part of the documentation.

--
Greetings

   Pete

A blizzard is when it snows sideways.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@web.de> wrote:

> Am 09.07.2009 um 20:02 schrieb Alan Mackenzie:

>> It can be fixed for Emacs running on a tty, as indeed I have fixed  
>> mine.

> Is this fix *very* specific? If it can be used in many terminal  
> emulations on many operating systems by many users, then it's really  
> worth to become part of GNU Emacs ? or is it 'just' X resources? Then  
> it's worth to become part of the documentation.

The fix is specific to Linux virtual terminals, the things that use
`loadkeys' and friends to setup the keyboard, and to which you get by
pressing, e.g. C-A-<f1> from X-Windows.  I don't know if it would work
without modification in an X-Windows terminal window.

The fix arranges for modifier keys to apply prefixes, so that where
<right> is normally "ESC [ C", C-<right> becomes "ESC [ 1 } ESC [ C" and
C-S-<right> would be "ESC [ 5 } ESC [ C".  Additionally, there's some
stuff in the function key map to handle the prefices.  It works
flawlessly.

The guy who wrote it, Kalle Niemitalo, doesn't much like GPL-3, and
doesn't want to assign it to the FSF, so it can't become part of Emacs.
I keep meaning to put it up on the Emacs Wiki, though.

>   Pete

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Miles Bader]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> The guy who wrote it, Kalle Niemitalo, doesn't much like GPL-3, and
> doesn't want to assign it to the FSF, so it can't become part of Emacs.

Sounds worth rewriting to get around the ass-hattery...

-Miles

-- 
Cabbage, n. A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a
man's head.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Miles!

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
>> The guy who wrote it, Kalle Niemitalo, doesn't much like GPL-3, and
>> doesn't want to assign it to the FSF, so it can't become part of Emacs.

> Sounds worth rewriting to get around the ass-hattery...

The what?  It sounds somewhat derogatory, whatever it means.

I really can't bring myself to disparage Kalle, who supplied me what I
needed at a time (over a decade ago) when I could barely even formulate
the problem, never mind solve it.  Dislike of the GPLs and aversion to
assigning copyright to the FSF aren't exactly uncommon, though I
personally disagree with these stances.

Rewriting it would indeed be worth it, though I think I'd have to leave
it to other people since I know KN's code too well.  People ask about
"control arrow keys on a tty" quite a lot.

There's one problem in Emacs at the moment: the function
`event-apply-modifier' strips out the upper-caseity from C-S-<letter>.
I don't know why it does this, but my own personal fix hasn't caused
me any problems:

(defun acm-event-apply-modifier (event symbol lshiftby prefix)
  "Apply a modifier flag to event EVENT.

Unlike the core Emacs function `event-apply-modifier', when both
<control> and <shift> are modifying a\(n English\) letter in an
event, b25 is set (for shift), and the LSB contains C-<letter>.

SYMBOL is the name of this modifier, as a symbol.
LSHIFTBY is the bit position of the modifier bit; e.g. 25 means 0x2000000.
PREFIX is the string that represents this modifier in an event type symbol."
  (if (numberp event)
      (let ((letter (logand event 4194303))) ; 2^22 - 1
        (if (eq symbol 'control)
            (cond ((and (>= letter ?A) (<= letter ?Z))
                   (- (logior (lsh 1 25) event) ?A -1)) ; add <shift>
                  ((and (>= letter ?a) (<= letter ?z))
                   (- event ?a -1))
                  ((and (>= letter ?\C-a) (<= letter ?\C-z)
                        (not (memq letter '(?\C-i ?\C-m))))) ; Can by typed without <ctrl>
                  (t (logior (lsh 1 lshiftby) event)))
          (logior (lsh 1 lshiftby) event)))
    (if (memq symbol (event-modifiers event))
        event
      (let ((event-type (if (symbolp event) event (car event))))
        (setq event-type (intern (concat prefix (symbol-name event-type))))
        (if (symbolp event)
            event-type
          (cons event-type (cdr event)))))))


> -Miles

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuernberg).

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Miles Bader]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> There's one problem in Emacs at the moment: the function
> `event-apply-modifier' strips out the upper-caseity from C-S-<letter>.
> I don't know why it does this, but my own personal fix hasn't caused
> me any problems:

Hmm, maybe resend your function to emacs-devel?

-Miles

-- 
Bacchus, n. A convenient deity invented by the ancients as an excuse for
getting drunk.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
>> There's one problem in Emacs at the moment: the function
>> `event-apply-modifier' strips out the upper-caseity from C-S-<letter>.
>> I don't know why it does this, but my own personal fix hasn't caused
>> me any problems:

> Hmm, maybe resend your function to emacs-devel?

I did, actually, some time ago in a rather obscure thread:

    Subject: Re: Shift on console
    Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:31:05 +0000
    Message-ID: <20080317233104.GA1824@muc.de>

, but it didn't attract any interest.  Until there're keyboards which
distinguish C-S-a from C-a, and infrastructure to support them, there's
not much to be gained by committing it.

I use C-M-S-a to go to the start of the next defun, since I got tired of
typing in M-- C-M-a all the time.

> -Miles

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

key map entry for shift-return?

[Chris Withers]

Hi All,

What's the key map entry for shift-return?
(as in the one for just return is "\C-m")

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 08.07.2009 um 11:31 schrieb Chris Withers:

> What's the key map entry for shift-return?

What is C-h k s-RET returning? Is your system able to distinguish  
between RET and s-RET?

--
Greetings

   Pete

A morning without coffee is like something without something else.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Chris Withers]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
> Am 08.07.2009 um 11:31 schrieb Chris Withers:
> 
>> What's the key map entry for shift-return?
> 
> What is C-h k s-RET returning? 

"""
RET (translated from <S-return>) runs the command newline-and-indent,
which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `simple.el'.

It is bound to RET, C-j.
"""

> Is your system able to distinguish 
> between RET and s-RET?

How can I tell?

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Peter Dyballa]

On 08.07.2009, at 11:53, Chris Withers wrote:

>> Is your system able to distinguish between RET and s-RET?
>
> How can I tell?

By interpreting the output!

C-h k says translated, so it is able to distinguish in this  
environment. And it also tells you one possible syntax form: S- 
return. You can also try to interactively bind the key and then by  
executing C-x ESC ESC (repeat-complex-command) you can review what  
was executed.

So you can use:

	(global-set-key [S-return]	 'some-function)

--
Greetings

   Pete

Rain is saved up in cloud banks.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Chris Withers]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
> C-h k says translated, so it is able to distinguish in this environment. 
> And it also tells you one possible syntax form: S-return. You can also 
> try to interactively bind the key and then by executing C-x ESC ESC 
> (repeat-complex-command) you can review what was executed.
> 
> So you can use:
> 
>     (global-set-key [S-return]     'some-function)

Well, I now have the following in my .emacs:

(add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map 
"\C-m" 'newline-and-indent)))

(add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map 
"S-return" 'newline)))

The first one works, the second one doesn't. What did I do wrong?

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 08.07.2009 um 13:51 schrieb Chris Withers:

> (add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map  
> "\C-m" 'newline-and-indent)))
>
> (add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map  
> "S-return" 'newline)))
>
> The first one works, the second one doesn't. What did I do wrong?


I think the syntax needs to use the vector form in this case:

	(add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map  
[S-return] 'newline)))

--
Greetings

   Pete       (:
         _    / __    -    -
       _/ \__/_/        -     -
      (´`)      (´`)   -    -
       `´        `´

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Chris Withers]

Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
>> (add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map 
>> "S-return" 'newline)))
>>
>> The first one works, the second one doesn't. What did I do wrong?
> 
> I think the syntax needs to use the vector form in this case:
> 
>     (add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map 
> [S-return] 'newline)))

Excellent, that was it, thanks.

Chris - can you guess I don't speak lisp? ;-)

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting
            - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 08.07.2009 um 15:39 schrieb Chris Withers:

> Chris - can you guess I don't speak lisp? ;-)


Me too. I learn from copying and have of practical things a good idea  
and experience…

--
Greetings

   Pete

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never  
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and  
neither do we.
				– Georges W. Bush

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Teemu Likonen]

On 2009-07-08 12:51 (+0100), Chris Withers wrote:

> Peter Dyballa wrote:
>> So you can use:
>>
>>     (global-set-key [S-return]     'some-function)
>
> Well, I now have the following in my .emacs:
>
> (add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map
> "\C-m" 'newline-and-indent)))
>
> (add-hook 'python-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key python-mode-map
> "S-return" 'newline)))

That's not good practice. You should write your python-mode settings to
a single hook function and add function's "name" to the
python-mode-hook. For example, put these lines in your .emacs file:

    (add-hook 'python-mode-hook 'my-python-mode-hook)

    (defun my-python-mode-hook ()
      (define-key python-mode-map "\C-m" 'newline-and-indent)
      (define-key python-mode-map [S-return] 'newline))

Now if you need to change the settings you can just edit the function
and evaluate it with C-M-x.

(Note that python-mode-hook is a variable which may contain your
previous hook experiments "(lambda ...)" if you haven't restarted your
Emacs session. You should set the variable to nil before evaluating the
above code or you can just restart Emacs.)

> The first one works, the second one doesn't. What did I do wrong?

Note that I used [S-return], not "S-return". See Peter's message once
again.

Re: key map entry for shift-return?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
> Peter Dyballa wrote:

>> Am 08.07.2009 um 11:31 schrieb Chris Withers:

>>> What's the key map entry for shift-return?

>> What is C-h k s-RET returning? 

> """
> RET (translated from <S-return>) runs the command newline-and-indent,
> which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `simple.el'.

> It is bound to RET, C-j.
> """

>> Is your system able to distinguish 
>> between RET and s-RET?

> How can I tell?

Type the two key sequences, then do C-h l (`view-lossage').  Visually
separate them in the display buffer (not always easy), and are they the
same?

> cheers,

> Chris

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).