Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Marc Tfardy]

I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me that
all things are working as usual. Here my questions:

   - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?

   - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?

   - can I open file without popup dialog - simply with C-x C-f in
     minibuffer?

   - can I suppress all popup dialogs?

   - working M-w, C-w, C-y or must I use C-x, C-c, C-v?

   - can I switch off tabs?

   - working all this nice extension elisp packages from internet without
     any kind of adaptations?

   - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs? In "Appendix
     F - Emacs and Mac OS" is written:

     "Emacs built on Mac OS X supports most of its major features except
      display support of PostScript images. The following features of
      Emacs are not supported on Mac OS Classic: unexec (`dump-emacs'),
      asynchronous subprocesses (`start-process'), and networking
      (`open-network-stream'). As a result, packages such as Gnus, GUD,
      and Comint do not work. Synchronous subprocesses (`call-process')
      are supported on non-Carbon build, but specially-crafted external
      programs are needed. Since external programs to handle commands
      such as `print-buffer' and `diff' are not available on Mac OS
      Classic, they are not supported. Non-Carbon build on Mac OS Classic
      does not support some features such as file dialogs, drag-and-drop,
      and Unicode menus."

      Is it still true for Aquamacs?

   - on which inconvenience and discomforts do I have to count? What is
     different to GNU Emacs?

thanks for answers!
regards
Marc

PS. Sorry for my english!

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Andrea Crotti]

On 25 Giu, 20:27, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
> Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me that
> all things are working as usual. Here my questions:
>
>    - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?
>
(setq menu-bar-mode nil)
(setq scroll-bar-mode nil)
(setq tool-bar-mode nil)

But maybe it's not the right away, it doesn't always work (the
variables are those ones)

>    - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?
>
Almost, I returned to the carbon version
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/carbonemacspackage.html
which I think is more similar

So I don't know the answer of the other questions.. I got some
different behaviours in key bindings and so I just don't use it, I
would also be interested in the differences from someone who knows
boths...

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Tim Visher]

Hi Marc,

Before I answer any of your specific questions, I would highly
recommend that you just use MacPorts build of Emacs rather than going
with Aquamacs.  I believe Aquamacs is a little bit more tuned/modified
for OS X rather than a standard Emacs experience and given the ease of
installing Emacs using MacPorts, there's really no reason to use it
anymore.

See http://www.macports.org/ for more info.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Marc Tfardy<bum@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
> Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me that
> all things are working as usual. Here my questions:
>
>  - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?

You can do all of this using the standard methods from within your
.emacs file.  However, there's actually no reason to turn off the
menubar on OS X, as you save no space by doing it.  OS X has a built
in location for all menubars that remains there throughout the entire
OS.  I have seen more than a few examples of people putting a switch
around the turn-off-menu-bar code that tests for OS X and doesn't do
it if it's there.  However, if you have no need for the menu bar
anyway, it's probably not worth the trouble.

>  - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?

It's virtually the same, in my estimation, except for the window
dressing, which is basically like changing your skin.

>  - can I open file without popup dialog - simply with C-x C-f in
>    minibuffer?

Yes.

>  - can I suppress all popup dialogs?

I'm not sure which popup dialogs you're referring to here.  However, I
can assure you that I've never seen a pop-up dialog while working with
Emacs on OS X.

>  - working M-w, C-w, C-y or must I use C-x, C-c, C-v?

Yes.

>  - can I switch off tabs?

Again, not sure exactly what you're referring to.  I have never seen
tabs in the MacPorts built version of Emacs.

>  - working all this nice extension elisp packages from internet without
>    any kind of adaptations?

I haven't had to modify any of the elisp packages I have installed.

>  - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs? In "Appendix
>    F - Emacs and Mac OS" is written:
>
>    "Emacs built on Mac OS X supports most of its major features except
>     display support of PostScript images. The following features of
>     Emacs are not supported on Mac OS Classic: unexec (`dump-emacs'),
>     asynchronous subprocesses (`start-process'), and networking
>     (`open-network-stream'). As a result, packages such as Gnus, GUD,
>     and Comint do not work. Synchronous subprocesses (`call-process')
>     are supported on non-Carbon build, but specially-crafted external
>     programs are needed. Since external programs to handle commands
>     such as `print-buffer' and `diff' are not available on Mac OS
>     Classic, they are not supported. Non-Carbon build on Mac OS Classic
>     does not support some features such as file dialogs, drag-and-drop,
>     and Unicode menus."
>
>     Is it still true for Aquamacs?

I haven't noticed anything.

>  - on which inconvenience and discomforts do I have to count? What is
>    different to GNU Emacs?

I haven't noticed anything, really.  I would recommend using the
System Preferences/Keyboard & Mouse/Modifier preference pane to turn
the capslock key into a control key and the option key into the super
key and then use the emacs preference dialog to change the command key
into your meta key.  However, you may not want it to be that way.
Just be aware that you can indeed move the modifier keys around to
suit your taste.

Hope that helps!

-- 

In Christ,

Timmy V.

http://burningones.com/
http://five.sentenc.es/ - Spend less time on e-mail

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[queries0]

On Jun 25, 2:27 pm, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.

I have been using emacs on OS X (10.4 ppc) for a few years, and emacs
is one of my main applications also. Aquamacs is an excellent
application, and I believe the answer is "yes, you can do things as
you would like" to all your questions.

I switched from using Aquamacs to using carbon emacs about six months
ago. Carbon emacs does feel more like using emacs on other unix
computers, and customization or adding emacs packages is done in a
more "conventional" way. This is just my opinion.

Also, if you open a terminal or Xterm, OS X has GNU Emacs "built in",
i.e. you don't need Aquamacs or Carbon Emacs, emacs is part of OS X

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Nurullah Akkaya]

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On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM, queries0 <queries0@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 25, 2:27 pm, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> > I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
> > use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
>
> I have been using emacs on OS X (10.4 ppc) for a few years, and emacs
> is one of my main applications also. Aquamacs is an excellent
> application, and I believe the answer is "yes, you can do things as
> you would like" to all your questions.
>
> I switched from using Aquamacs to using carbon emacs about six months
> ago. Carbon emacs does feel more like using emacs on other unix
> computers, and customization or adding emacs packages is done in a
> more "conventional" way. This is just my opinion.
>
> Also, if you open a terminal or Xterm, OS X has GNU Emacs "built in",
> i.e. you don't need Aquamacs or Carbon Emacs, emacs is part of OS X
>
>

If you are comfortable with Emacs, don't use aquaemacs shortcuts will drive
you nuts.

You can build Emacs on mac os x very easily and that will produce a native
double click able
application that will behave just like normal emacs on any other OS's.

If you build it your self all the features work as expected from gnus to
reading pdf's.

-- 
Nurullah Akkaya
http://nakkaya.com

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Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 25.06.2009 um 20:27 schrieb Marc Tfardy:

>   - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?

No. At least I've never seen a way to switch off scroll-bar. The menu  
bar in the Carbon and Cocoa ports is put into the  menu bar.

>
>   - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?

Yes, in GNU Emacs, the X client.

>
>   - can I open file without popup dialog - simply with C-x C-f in
>     minibuffer?

Of course.

>
>   - can I suppress all popup dialogs?

I don't think so…

>
>   - working M-w, C-w, C-y or must I use C-x, C-c, C-v?

Rebinding of keys and modifiers is possible. Some Apple Cmd-keys are  
grabbed by Mac OS X before Emacs can see them.

>
>   - can I switch off tabs?

What are tabs? Do you mean C-i?

>
>   - working all this nice extension elisp packages from internet  
> without
>     any kind of adaptations?

I haven't tested all, just three or four… (htmlize, session.el,  
AUCTeX, tabbar.el)

>
>   - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs?

I don't know. Aquamacs Emacs does not seem to friendly co-exist with  
my init file and my way of working with GNU Emacs.

>
>   - on which inconvenience and discomforts do I have to count? What is
>     different to GNU Emacs?


Since you know what's inconvenient and not comforting you it's better  
you find this out yourself. You can also try Emacs.app, the Cocoa  
version of GNU Emacs 23.1.50. A few hours ago a description was sent  
where to get the source of GNU Emacs 23.1.50 from which you can build  
Emacs.app on Mac OS X.

--
Greetings

   Pete

If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
				– George W. Bush

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Barry Margolin]

In article <mailman.1258.1245957740.2239.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
 Tim Visher <tim.visher@gmail.com> wrote:

> >  - can I suppress all popup dialogs?
> 
> I'm not sure which popup dialogs you're referring to here.  However, I
> can assure you that I've never seen a pop-up dialog while working with
> Emacs on OS X.

I use Carbon Emacs.  The only time I see a pop-up is when I quit Emacs 
when it's not the foreground application (e.g. I logout or shut down, 
which automatically quits all applications), and there are unsaved 
buffers that it wants to ask me what to do about.  Normally it would 
prompt in the minibuffer, but if Emacs isn't in the foreground it uses 
OS X's standard alert mechanism to pop up a dialogue with all the 
possibilities.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Kevin Rodgers]

Andrea Crotti wrote:
> On 25 Giu, 20:27, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
>> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
>> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
>> Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me that
>> all things are working as usual. Here my questions:
>>
>>    - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?
>>
> (setq menu-bar-mode nil)
> (setq scroll-bar-mode nil)
> (setq tool-bar-mode nil)
> 
> But maybe it's not the right away, it doesn't always work (the
> variables are those ones)

It is not the right way, as each of those variable's doc strings
explains.

(menu-bar-mode 0)
(scroll-bar-mode 0)
(tool-bar-mode 0)

-- 
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Marc Tfardy]

queries0 schrieb:
 > On Jun 25, 2:27 pm, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
 >> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
 >> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
 >
 > I have been using emacs on OS X (10.4 ppc) for a few years, and emacs
 > is one of my main applications also. Aquamacs is an excellent
 > application, and I believe the answer is "yes, you can do things as
 > you would like" to all your questions.
 >
 > I switched from using Aquamacs to using carbon emacs about six months
 > ago. Carbon emacs does feel more like using emacs on other unix
 > computers, and customization or adding emacs packages is done in a
 > more "conventional" way. This is just my opinion.

Thanks for Carbon Emacs hint, but the question is how long Carbon Emacs
will be available? Apple say no carbon support in Snow Leopard :(

 > Also, if you open a terminal or Xterm, OS X has GNU Emacs "built in",
 > i.e. you don't need Aquamacs or Carbon Emacs, emacs is part of OS X

Yes, this is still a alternative.

regards
Marc

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Marc Tfardy]

Andrea Crotti schrieb:

 > On 25 Giu, 20:27, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:

 >>    - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?
 >>
 > Almost, I returned to the carbon version
 > http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/carbonemacspackage.html
 > which I think is more similar

Yes, but as I already wrote in other post, carbon support will be
shortly cutted.

regards
Marc

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Marc Tfardy]

Tim Visher schrieb:
 > Hi Marc,
 >

 > Before I answer any of your specific questions, I would highly
 > recommend that you just use MacPorts build of Emacs rather than going
 > with Aquamacs.  I believe Aquamacs is a little bit more tuned/modified
 > for OS X rather than a standard Emacs experience and given the ease of
 > installing Emacs using MacPorts, there's really no reason to use it
 > anymore.
 >
 > See http://www.macports.org/ for more info.

Never heard about MacPort, thanks for this hint!


 > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Marc Tfardy<bum@cyk.cyk> wrote:
 >> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
 >> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
 >> Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me that
 >> all things are working as usual. Here my questions:
 >>
 >>  - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?
 >
 > You can do all of this using the standard methods from within your
 > .emacs file.  However, there's actually no reason to turn off the
 > menubar on OS X, as you save no space by doing it.  OS X has a built
 > in location for all menubars that remains there throughout the entire
 > OS.

Yes, it's true. I've forgot this.


 >>  - can I suppress all popup dialogs?
 >
 > I'm not sure which popup dialogs you're referring to here.

I've assumed that Aquamacs is very strong dialog driven because of Mac
feeling.


 > However, I can assure you that I've never seen a pop-up dialog while
 > working with Emacs on OS X.

This is great!


 >>  - can I switch off tabs?
 >
 > Again, not sure exactly what you're referring to.  I have never seen
 > tabs in the MacPorts built version of Emacs.

 From http://aquamacs.org/features.shtml:

   "Aquamacs Emacs can organize the files that you're editing in tabs.
   This preserves screen space but allows you to keep track of all those
   open files easily. You've probably seen the tabs in Safari, Firefox or
   the OS X Terminal program."

See also http://aquamacs.org/images/aquamacs-screenshot.png too.
Aquamacs tabs are similar to firefox tabs.



 >>  - working all this nice extension elisp packages from internet without
 >>    any kind of adaptations?
 >
 > I haven't had to modify any of the elisp packages I have installed.

 >>  - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs? In "Appendix
 >>    F - Emacs and Mac OS" is written:
 >>
 >>    "Emacs built on Mac OS X supports [...]"
 >>
 >>     Is it still true for Aquamacs?
 >
 > I haven't noticed anything.
 >
 >>  - on which inconvenience and discomforts do I have to count? What is
 >>    different to GNU Emacs?
 >
 > I haven't noticed anything, really.

Thanks for all responses at this point! My hope is back - the way to
switch to Mac is again open.

regards
Marc

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Nurullah Akkaya]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1297 bytes --]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Marc Tfardy <bum@cyk.cyk> wrote:

> queries0 schrieb:
> > On Jun 25, 2:27 pm, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> >> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
> >> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
> >
> > I have been using emacs on OS X (10.4 ppc) for a few years, and emacs
> > is one of my main applications also. Aquamacs is an excellent
> > application, and I believe the answer is "yes, you can do things as
> > you would like" to all your questions.
> >
> > I switched from using Aquamacs to using carbon emacs about six months
> > ago. Carbon emacs does feel more like using emacs on other unix
> > computers, and customization or adding emacs packages is done in a
> > more "conventional" way. This is just my opinion.
>
> Thanks for Carbon Emacs hint, but the question is how long Carbon Emacs
> will be available? Apple say no carbon support in Snow Leopard :(
>
> > Also, if you open a terminal or Xterm, OS X has GNU Emacs "built in",
> > i.e. you don't need Aquamacs or Carbon Emacs, emacs is part of OS X
>
> Yes, this is still a alternative.
>
> regards
> Marc
>
>
AFAIK carbon stuff is removed from emacs if you build it now it uses cocoa.


-- 
Nurullah Akkaya
http://nakkaya.com

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Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Xah Lee]

you don't seems to have tried but asked a bunch of questions.

mac os x comes with emacs that can be run in Terminal. Which,
basically satisfies ALL your queries.

and if you want some form GUI, yet stick with emacs's traditional way
of operation, you can try Carbon Emacs or NeXT Emacs (aka
“Emacs.app”).

... what a bunch of silly questions. You must have been a decade out
of touch.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

On Jun 25, 11:27 am, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't want
> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
> Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me that
> all things are working as usual. Here my questions:
>
>    - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?
>
>    - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?
>
>    - can I open file without popup dialog - simply with C-x C-f in
>      minibuffer?
>
>    - can I suppress all popup dialogs?
>
>    - working M-w, C-w, C-y or must I use C-x, C-c, C-v?
>
>    - can I switch off tabs?
>
>    - working all this nice extension elisp packages from internet without
>      any kind of adaptations?
>
>    - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs? In "Appendix
>      F - Emacs and Mac OS" is written:
>
>      "Emacs built on Mac OS X supports most of its major features except
>       display support of PostScript images. The following features of
>       Emacs are not supported on Mac OS Classic: unexec (`dump-emacs'),
>       asynchronous subprocesses (`start-process'), and networking
>       (`open-network-stream'). As a result, packages such as Gnus, GUD,
>       and Comint do not work. Synchronous subprocesses (`call-process')
>       are supported on non-Carbon build, but specially-crafted external
>       programs are needed. Since external programs to handle commands
>       such as `print-buffer' and `diff' are not available on Mac OS
>       Classic, they are not supported. Non-Carbon build on Mac OS Classic
>       does not support some features such as file dialogs, drag-and-drop,
>       and Unicode menus."
>
>       Is it still true for Aquamacs?
>
>    - on which inconvenience and discomforts do I have to count? What is
>      different to GNU Emacs?
>

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Barry Margolin]

In article <h22uhe$qhq$1@news.onet.pl>, Marc Tfardy <bum@cyk.cyk> 
wrote:

>    "Aquamacs Emacs can organize the files that you're editing in tabs.
>    This preserves screen space but allows you to keep track of all those
>    open files easily. You've probably seen the tabs in Safari, Firefox or
>    the OS X Terminal program."
> 
> See also http://aquamacs.org/images/aquamacs-screenshot.png too.
> Aquamacs tabs are similar to firefox tabs.

Does it really create a tab for every buffer?  I frequently have dozens 
of buffers (I use p4.el, and it has a tendency to create lots of "*P4 
Output*<##>" buffers), where would it fit all those tabs?  Or do you 
have to tell it when to put a buffer in a tab?  That wouldn't be too bad.

I generally hate tabbed applications; luckily, most of them have 
preference options to disable this, and I assume Aquamacs does as well.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Ian Eure]

On Jun 25, 2009, at 11:27 AM, Marc Tfardy wrote:

> I plan to switch from windows to intel mac and Aquamacs and I don't  
> want
> use windows under mac - neither in virtual machine nor as dual boot.
> Emacs is one of my main application so it is very important for me  
> that
> all things are working as usual. Here my questions:
>
As other people have mentioned, you probably shouldn't use Aquamacs,  
as it's geared towards users who are comfortable with Mac apps, rather  
than Emacs.

Your options for Emacs on OS X break down into the Emacs 22-based and  
23-based. All GUI Emacs 22-based distributions use the Carbon port.  
Carbon will continue to exist in Snow Leopard, but it won't be usable  
by 64-bit apps. Carbon-based Emacsen should continue to work just fine  
with 10.6.

The Carbon port was removed from Emacs for version 23, and it was  
replaced with a Cocoa port. All 23-based GUI Emacsen use the Cocoa port.

22-based Emacsen:

  - Stock Emacs. OS X ships with Emacs 22.1.1, text-only.

  - Aquamacs, which most people have covered. http://aquamacs.org

  - Carbon Emacs. This is a distribution of Emacs 22 compiled with the  
Carbon window-system, and some added packages.

  - Emacs 22 from MacPorts. Newer than the version which ships with OS  
X, text-only.

23-based Emacsen:

  - Emacs-app from MacPorts. The CVS snapshot is five months out of  
date, and the non-CVS build is version "23.0.0_NS-9.0rc3." I have no  
idea what that means, since it doesn't resemble any of the pretest  
versions of Emacs 23 released so far.

  - Compile your own from CVS. It's very straightforward.

  - Run my nightly builds. Vanilla CVS, with minor patching as  
necessary to get stuff to work. I run them, and they work fine for me. http://atomized.org/wp-content/cocoa-emacs-nightly/


>  - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs? In "Appendix
>    F - Emacs and Mac OS" is written:
>
>    "Emacs built on Mac OS X supports most of its major features except
>     display support of PostScript images. The following features of
>     Emacs are not supported on Mac OS Classic: unexec (`dump-emacs'),
>     asynchronous subprocesses (`start-process'), and networking
>     (`open-network-stream'). As a result, packages such as Gnus, GUD,
>     and Comint do not work. Synchronous subprocesses (`call-process')
>     are supported on non-Carbon build, but specially-crafted external
>     programs are needed. Since external programs to handle commands
>     such as `print-buffer' and `diff' are not available on Mac OS
>     Classic, they are not supported. Non-Carbon build on Mac OS  
> Classic
>     does not support some features such as file dialogs, drag-and- 
> drop,
>     and Unicode menus."
>
>     Is it still true for Aquamacs?
>
I believe this was only applicable for Emacs running on Mac OS 9 and  
less. I've never had any problem with these features with any Emacs  
running on Mac OS X.

  - Ian

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 27.06.2009 um 06:04 schrieb Ian Eure:

> 22-based Emacsen:
>
> [...]
>
>  - Emacs 22 from MacPorts. Newer than the version which ships with  
> OS X, text-only.

There are also 22.3 packages which can be built and installed with Fink.

>
> 23-based Emacsen:
>
>  - Emacs-app from MacPorts. The CVS snapshot is five months out of  
> date, and the non-CVS build is version "23.0.0_NS-9.0rc3." I have  
> no idea what that means, since it doesn't resemble any of the  
> pretest versions of Emacs 23 released so far.

The same is also available via Fink. This build was an intermediate  
step to update the very old code basis of "Cocoa Emacs" – could be it  
was 21.x! Since GNU Emacs 23.x exists half a decade and its Unicode  
effort was seen, this code base was used (there 23.0.0) and the NS  
(or GNUstep/OPENSTEP or Cocoa/Aqua) additions were patched into it.  
It was on the way to a ready Emacs.app v. 9.0 (version 8.0 has a blue  
icon and is based on 20.7) and Release Candidate 3.

It fits well into a museum… (for daily use not recommended, too  
restricted)

>
>  - Compile your own from CVS. It's very straightforward.


It helps to have Fink or MacPorts with their additional software  
packages available that are used by GNU Emacs 23.1.50.

--
Greetings

   Pete

If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, then  
the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.
				– Weinberg's Second Law

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[David Reitter]

Marc,

there have been a lot of "gut feeling" answers here from people who
convey hear-say about Aquamacs (and a few from people who have
actually tried it).

What is correct is that Aquamacs is better suitable for people who are
used to operating systems such as the Mac or Windows and who use key
bindings for those alongside the Emacs ones.

>    - can I switch off menubar, toolbar and scrollbar?

Yes, the best way to do this is to switch to fullscreen mode.  Just
press Command-Shift-Enter (= Apple-Shift-Return).

>    - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?

Yes, absolutely.  Aquamacs has a different default font, but that can
easily be changed.  Carbon Emacs (and also Emacs.app) use a monospaced
font as default, but either way, you have a similar look and feel.
There are additional things (like dialogs and tabs if wanted), which
of course fit in with the rest of the operating system.

>    - can I open file without popup dialog - simply with C-x C-f in
>      minibuffer?

Yes, I do it all the time.

>    - can I suppress all popup dialogs?

Yes, either by not using the mouse at all, or with a simple
configuration.
That's the same in Emacs for X Windows, by the way (or Carbon Emacs).

>    - working M-w, C-w, C-y or must I use C-x, C-c, C-v?

Killing and Yanking works as expected.

>    - can I switch off tabs?

Yes, Options menu.

>    - working all this nice extension elisp packages from internet without
>      any kind of adaptations?

Yes.  Install them into a directory where Emacs or Aquamacs can find
them.
That's documented in the manual (Help menu) and on the Wiki.

Aquamacs generally requires a bit less configuration for this stuff,
but I trust you're comfortable with .emacs anyways.   Big packages
such as SLIME or JDEE work (point-and-click installers provided, no
config needed).

>    - what GNU Emacs features do not working in Aquamacs? In "Appendix
>      F - Emacs and Mac OS" is written:
>
>      "Emacs built on Mac OS X supports most of its major features except
>       display support of PostScript images. The following features of
>       Emacs are not supported on Mac OS Classic: unexec (`dump-emacs'),
>       asynchronous subprocesses (`start-process'), and networking
>       (`open-network-stream'). As a result, packages such as Gnus, GUD,
>       and Comint do not work.

All of these work on OS X in all Emacsen including Aquamacs.

> Synchronous subprocesses (`call-process')
>       are supported on non-Carbon build, but specially-crafted external
>       programs are needed. Since external programs to handle commands
>       such as `print-buffer' and `diff' are not available on Mac OS
>       Classic, they are not supported. Non-Carbon build on Mac OS Classic
>       does not support some features such as file dialogs, drag-and-drop,
>       and Unicode menus."

All of these work on OS X in all Emacsen including Aquamacs.

>    - on which inconvenience and discomforts do I have to count? What is
>      different to GNU Emacs?

As far as I can tell, the port is pretty complete.

Good luck with your switch.  You will be pleased, whether you go for
GNU Emacs (Carbon Emacs) or Aquamacs.

You can download and try Aquamacs by double-clicking on the downloaded
Aquamacs.app without the need to install.

Your questions aren't silly at all and I hope you'll find what you
need.  There is an "Emacs on OSX" mailing list where people can help
you out if you have a specific gripe.

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Marc Tfardy]

David Reitter schrieb:
[...]

A big thanks to You! I'am very happy that there are evidently no
arguments contra to Emacs and Mac.

Regards!
Marc

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Xah Lee]

On Jun 26, 9:40 am, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> Andrea Crotti schrieb:
>
>  > On 25 Giu, 20:27, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
>
>  >>    - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?
>  >>
>  > Almost, I returned to the carbon version
>  >http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/carbonemacspac...
>  > which I think is more similar
>
> Yes, but as I already wrote in other post, carbon support will be
> shortly cutted.

i think that's just a naming issue. Carbon Emacs is named that because
it was one one of the earliest popular emacs port on the mac, at the
time Cocoa is just budding under OS X and Aqua is buzzword pretty.
(this is early 2000s)

AquaMac Emacs didn't come or didn't become popular until few years
later.

Although the name is Carbon Emacs, indicating it is based on Apple's
Carbon API (which is older technology, replaced by Cocoa API).
However, as of today, Carbon Emacs uses whatever is in latest GNU
emacs as base, so does AquaEmacs. (and in this year or last, FSF's
emacs cvs has deprecated (or removed) the Carbon based emacs code) As
far as which of the Carbon Emacs and AquaEmacs are more based on
Carbon API or Cocoa API, i suppose they are pretty much equal.

In a nutshell, if you are used to traditional user interface of emacs,
stick with Carbon. Because with Aqua, you have to do a lot to
customize it. It certainly can be done. Note that AquaMac also
launches Apple's proprietary help system as its help file. All in all
is very annoying. AquaMac tries to make emacs's interface stick with
100% Apple's GUI Guidelines. This means, it acts like every other Mac
app, which is in conflict with emacs ways, some good emacs ways.

I support AquaMac Emacs because it spread idea that many emacs user
interface is long overdue for a overhaul, and AquaMac is widely
successful for that, esp among academic LaTeX users, who can't be
bothered to spend months or years to study emacs's esoteric ways.

If you really want Cocoa API based emacs, i heard NeXT/OpenStep Emacs
(aka “Emacs.app”) is it. However, in my experiences of trying it about
once a year in the past 3 years, it still have several major issues
that i cann't adopt. (it has major problems with unicode, and can't
interpret keybindings on the numeric keypad)

btw, as you are switching from Windows to Mac, i'm switching from 19
years of Mac experience with 10 years of unix sys admin, to Windows
today. (following is a writeup. Some tutorial on tech details of win
sys admin or tech are still work in progress.)

• Switching from Mac/Unix To PC/Windows
  http://xahlee.org/mswin/switch_to_windows.html

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Xah Lee]

>  > Again, not sure exactly what you're referring to.  I have never seen
>  > tabs in the MacPorts built version of Emacs.
>
>  From http://aquamacs.org/features.shtml:
>
>    "Aquamacs Emacs can organize the files that you're editing in tabs.
>    This preserves screen space but allows you to keep track of all those
>    open files easily. You've probably seen the tabs in Safari, Firefox or
>    the OS X Terminal program."
>
> See also http://aquamacs.org/images/aquamacs-screenshot.pngtoo.
> Aquamacs tabs are similar to firefox tabs.

The tabs in Aquamac Emacs is based on the tabbar.el module.

tabs in emacs is quite different from tabs in firefox or any modern
app's tabs.

The bottom reason for this is that emacs doesn't do tabs, instead, it
has buffers. You can have many windows (what emacs calls frames), and
each window can access any buffer. However, tabs in modern apps does
not work like that. In modern apps, each windows has a set of tabs.
You could move a tab from one window to another in some (such as
Firefox version 3 or later), but in general, you don't have a set of
tabs that any set of windows can access or display.

in practice, this means when you use tabs in emacs, it's quite
different. Tabs in emacs is merely just a prettified GUI for accessing
buffers.

See this page on emacswiki:
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode

the following section is largely written by me. I don't like some of
the minor editing that made it as is today, but here's the section as
it is, which still largely correct:

The tabbar.el is extensively modified and used by AquamacsEmacs to be
as close to modern UI’s tab bar as possible. (see AquamacsEmacs’s
official website screenshot for a look. You can also try to get the
source code from AquamacsEmacs, but it may not work with standard
emacs.)

Note that tabbar mode as implemented in Emacs is a bit different than
tabs in web browsers or IDEs. In a web browser, each window may have
several tabs, and each window’s tabs stay with that window. Namely,
you cannot have Window A’s tab jump to window B, unless you drag it
over (Firefox 3 support this, for example. Safari 3.2 does not.).
However, the tabs implemented in emacs with tabbar mode is more like a
GUI-based display of buffer listing, displayed on top of the window.
In particular, tabs does not stick to a particular emacs’s Frame, and
conversely, each Emacs Frame can display a tab that is also shown in
another Emacs Frame.

Also, emacs’s tabbar mode’s tab can be hidden, as if showing only the
current “page” of a tab set, called a “group”. By default, tabs are
grouped by major mode. So, for example, if current buffer is in html-
mode, all the tabs shown are other buffers in html-mode. If there are
no other html-mode buffers, then you will have only one tab, even if
you have lots other buffers. All your dired buffers, C-mode buffers,
java-buffers, etc, are in other tab group and is hidden. You have to
click on a special tab widget to switch to them, or use keyboard
shortcut to switch tab or tab group.

What is considered as a tab group can be customized. You could set it
up so every buffer is of the same group.

Tab bar mode is implemented using a special emacs display area at the
top of Emacs Window, not Emacs Frame. (For example, if you split a
window into 3 panes, each will have a tab bar). Some other modes also
use this area. For example Info, Dired, Slime, ERC, ruler-mode, etc.
So that when switching to these modes, the tabs will not shown. You
can get the tabs back by typing “M-x tabbar-local-mode”.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[David Reitter]

On Jun 29, 4:49 pm, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> David Reitter schrieb:
> [...]
>
> A big thanks to You! I'am very happy that there are evidently no
> arguments contra to Emacs and Mac.

You bet.

By the way.  Aquamacs (sic!) is available as release (version 1.8
currently), which tracks the GNU Emacs 22 branch, basically that's the
GNU Emacs 22.3 release.  (Modified, of course, yet based on it and
compatible with its APIs nonetheless.)

At the same time, there is already an almost feature-complete, yet
less stable Aquamacs Cocoa (not Carbon).  This, again substantially
modified, tracks GNU Emacs 23,  which is in development.  All of this
stuff is in development - help is appreciated, but neither Emacs 23
(NextStep port) nor Aquamacs/Cocoa have made a release at this point.

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[queries0]

On Jun 29, 7:21 pm, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 9:40 am, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
>
> > Andrea Crotti schrieb:
>
> >  > On 25 Giu, 20:27, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
>
> >  >>    - is the look & feel approximately like GNU Emacs?
>
> >  > Almost, I returned to the carbon version
> >  >http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/carbonemacspac...
> >  > which I think is more similar
>
> > Yes, but as I already wrote in other post, carbon support will be
> > shortly cutted.

text elided

> • Switching from Mac/Unix To PC/Windows
>  http://xahlee.org/mswin/switch_to_windows.html

I have read your article, and. as I understand it, the principal
benefit of your HP running Windows is that you get "a lot more for
your money". But you also say that Mac/OS X has a better integration
of components/hardware. As you uut it "Mac always just works".

Returning to the point, I (PowerPC user) have used Aquamacs,
Emacs.App, Carbon Emacs, and emacs bundled with OS X. As much as I
like Aquamacs, and have contributed to it, I find Carbon Emacs (for a
PowerPC user) to be closer to what I expect from emacs, especially if
I am trying to share my .emacs file from other systems. In my
experience, what I miss most from Aquamacs is printing, and I wish the
other apps could deliver what Aquamacs delivers.

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 30.06.2009 um 05:23 schrieb queries0:

> In my experience, what I miss most from Aquamacs is printing, and I  
> wish the other apps could deliver what Aquamacs delivers.


When the buffer just contains ISO Latin-1 (ISO 8859-1) characters,  
then the PostScript print entries from the File menu are the proper  
choice. Mac OS X converts PostScript to PDF and sends it to your  
PostScript printer. When your printer is dumb, then you've installed  
software (a printer driver) which converts the vector graphics  
(PostScript or PDF) to a flood of pixels.

When you try to print from buffers with characters from behind the  
basic ISO Latin-1 range then htmlize is the choice. It converts such  
a buffer to Unicode encoded HTML and delegates its further use to  
your Web browser. This one is embedded in Mac OS X and when you then  
try to print the OS will take over all work.

Htmlize.el by Hrvoje Nikšić: http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~hniksic/emacs/ 
htmlize.el. A sample of its capabilities can be seen here: http:// 
fly.srk.fer.hr/~hniksic/emacs/htmlize.el.html – missing some CJK and  
other non-Latin content. Lennart Borgman's htmlize-view.el helps a  
bit to handle printing (http://piprim.tuxfamily.org/home/pi/emacs.d/ 
site-lisp/htmlize-view.el). (Fink supports some Emacs Lisp files or  
packages and can bring it to your Mac.)

--
Greetings

   Pete

With Capitalism man exploits man. With communism it's the exact  
opposite.

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Marc Tfardy]

Xah Lee schrieb:

 > The tabs in Aquamac Emacs is based on the tabbar.el module.
 >
 > tabs in emacs is quite different from tabs in firefox or any modern
 > app's tabs.
 >
 > The bottom reason for this is that emacs doesn't do tabs, instead, it
 > has buffers. You can have many windows (what emacs calls frames), and
 > each window can access any buffer. However, tabs in modern apps does
 > not work like that. In modern apps,

Very thanks for teaching about tabs, windows-frame terms and what modern
apps are but first, this was not topic and seconds I'm familiar with
this things.

 > in practice, this means when you use tabs in emacs, it's quite
 > different. Tabs in emacs is merely just a prettified GUI for accessing
 > buffers.
 > See this page on emacswiki:
 > http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode
 >
 > [very long dissertation about tabs]

Again - do you not think, that when one ask for possibility of switching
off tabs, he is not interested how good tabs are in emacs, how different
in comparison to other apps they are implemented and so on. I ask for
switch off because I don't like tabs.

regards
Marc

Re: Emacs for Mac OS X - questions

[Xah Lee]

On Jul 2, 11:57 am, Marc Tfardy <b...@cyk.cyk> wrote:
> Xah Lee schrieb:
>
>  > The tabs in Aquamac Emacs is based on the tabbar.el module.
>  >
>  > tabs in emacs is quite different from tabs in firefox or any modern
>  > app's tabs.
>  >
>  > The bottom reason for this is that emacs doesn't do tabs, instead, it
>  > has buffers. You can have many windows (what emacs calls frames), and
>  > each window can access any buffer. However, tabs in modern apps does
>  > not work like that. In modern apps,
>
> Very thanks for teaching about tabs, windows-frame terms and what modern
> apps are but first, this was not topic and seconds I'm familiar with
> this things.
>
>  > in practice, this means when you use tabs in emacs, it's quite
>  > different. Tabs in emacs is merely just a prettified GUI for accessing
>  > buffers.
>  > See this page on emacswiki:
>  >http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode
>  >
>  > [very long dissertation about tabs]
>
> Again - do you not think, that when one ask for possibility of switching
> off tabs, he is not interested how good tabs are in emacs, how different
> in comparison to other apps they are implemented and so on. I ask for
> switch off because I don't like tabs.
>
> regards
> Marc

Hi Marc,

Sorry i didn't notice originally you were asking to switch off tabs.

anyway, i'm a advocate for emacs modernization, and i think tabs is a
very important element because it provides visual clue on the hidden
buffers. I ranted on tabs because a lot emacs users got confused by
the different models, and for myself, i really tried to used tabs on
and off over 2 years and in the end got pissed because it just a hack
and can't really do the job. (it has major bugs that crasches emacs.
hard to find download location, etc. The one in aquamacs emacs is
highly modified from tabbar.el and i think it works only for
aquamacs.)

 Xah