From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Riley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: emacs-w3m question Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:19:30 +0100 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Message-ID: References: <87vdvdu4mp.fsf@literaturlatenight.de> <74160b46-e541-436a-a776-c8bd53d6cd55@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <1f28a20e-0c9f-4478-a85c-27ae40ed7fc9@v16g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <200811031125.mA3BPPZu024539@zogzog.maillard.mobi> <7sskq7k4s3.fsf@one.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1225809653 25854 80.91.229.12 (4 Nov 2008 14:40:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:40:53 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 04 15:41:52 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-forward1.uio.no ([129.240.10.70]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KxN6N-0005U2-TW for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:41:51 +0100 Original-Received: from exim by mail-out1.uio.no with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KxN5H-0007hN-B3 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:40:43 +0100 Original-Received: from mail-mx2.uio.no ([129.240.10.30]) by mail-out1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KxN5H-0007hG-7J for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:40:43 +0100 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by mail-mx2.uio.no with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KxN5G-0002hI-H3 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:40:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49660 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KxN5A-0005vv-HF for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:40:36 -0500 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!news.glorb.com!news2!news.eternal-september.org!news.motzarella.org!motzarella.org!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 51 Original-X-Trace: news.eternal-september.org U2FsdGVkX1+DuLVtykt6R+uf7FlLJuXWbpyNM7RCq1IWOoKGzsRzEOL1yg8X3//kZE4hqOTDVUd7zi8QEKlss7MTsEVQQXQyQlNQWlg6ZsJqt254zxEgZ7gd4eg2A35S8hH9zi8Ga4Zmi4FoBjgfkg== Original-X-Complaints-To: Please send complaints to abuse@motzarella.org with full headers Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:19:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/pcvxq7OrsbbdO9NmQsKByDi5EMbSYxy66mpTHcjjrMQ== Cancel-Lock: sha1:d3+qS+rLBF//ZO0MPtv9hZ2LGYI= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:164096 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: pass (mail-mx2.uio.no: domain of gnu.org designates 199.232.76.165 as permitted sender) client-ip=199.232.76.165; envelope-from=help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org; helo=lists.gnu.org; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, MISSING_SUBJECT=0.001,NO_RECEIVED=-0.001,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: F61C92F291903FDF220970BB0CF94A03E21FBCB8 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 199.232.76.165 spam_score: -39 maxlevel 200 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 31 total 75915 max/h 424 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59434 Archived-At: Chris McMahan writes: > Richard Riley writes: > >> Paul R writes: >> >>> Dear Xavier, >>> >>> Xavier> What's more, directional keys are one of the dumbest addition >>> Xavier> one could have thought off (in my opinion). The same apply for >>> Xavier> numerical keypad: what are they useful for exactly ? Is it that >>> Xavier> hard to press shift+& (for the azerty keyboard) to get a 1 ? Or >>> Xavier> press C-b to move point left ? I do not think so. >>> >>> Xavier> The real reason that comes to mind is lazyness. People do not >>> Xavier> want to (take time to) learn how to do things, they want to go >>> Xavier> fast (even if they go fast wrongly). Keyboard (or typing more >>> Xavier> generally) is just an example, there are so many other applying >>> Xavier> here... >>> >>> This sounds sooo much like overstated elitism. You may prefer to use C-b >>> and C-f and S-&, because you're so good and so l33t, this will never >>> change the point : beginners don't, period. Default settings must help >>> those people, who have not yet set their .emacs, to use and try the >>> software and see if they like it or not. >> >> That's pretty much as I see it too. And only recently having become >> proficient enough with emacs once again I can attest to the difficulties >> involved in understanding some of the more antiquated defaults which do >> not take into account beginners. It takes a special kind of curmudgeon >> to deny that setting the arrow keys to move the cursor the same as >> virtually every other application in the world would help Emacs uptake. > > My only issue with making the arrow keys the default setting is that it > forces me to take my hands away from the home keys. I don't like using > page-up and page-down for the same reason. > > I'd have no objection as long as the standard cursor movement keys (C-n > C-p C-f and C-b) are also enabled. > > - Chris No one has suggested not keeping the existing bindings. But since the arrow keys are indeed bound by default I think in emacs 22 etc then it's more an argument of "whether" the keys should be bound :-; And of course they should. Xavier seems to be more of the view "do not bind them" since people will be "lazy". My cursor keys on a cherry kbd are to the right of the right ctrl key. I use them all the time and consider myself a reasonable emacs user. Every other app users them near enough. I dont see that emacs should be an exception. Note that I dont agree with Xah on everything but I do agree with Paul R above.