From: Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?"
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <f39aa3a5-44db-4b68-ae00-8a600a31e4bf@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87iozqzjjq.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se>
On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:41:21 PM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Again, I don't understand the "data" viewpoint. Data structures
> and algorithms are the same, or very close, in my mind. Lots of
> algorithms don't even work - and how could they? - if not for a
> specific data structure. (Is this what you mean by "data"?)
> SQL is respected. There is nothing wrong with VB, or VBA, as
> *languages* (they are just BASIC offshots like all the others),
> the problem are those disgusting IDEs, and especially the MS
> Access database wizards. From a theory standpoint, they are the
> opposite of MVC. From an emotional standpoint, they make me want
> to puke. I don't know anything about Cobol. C is highly respect in
> theory and practice, perhaps because of Unix, perhaps because it
> is so cool. C++ is far from as stable/gentlemanly as C, but it
> works, and is fast, with development, and with execution. It is
> the language that the man on the street *still* is (by far) most
> likely to associate with programming.
Well we see differently then.
C programmers think that C has data-structures though they dont think of an int or a char as a data structure.
In fact the opposite is the case: The only data structures C has are int and char (and scalars). The rest are just storage structures.
Haskell (and from a certain pov lisp) are languages that actually have data structures.
Of course we use the same words and in different ways so heres a map:
What I call a data structure you would probably call a discrete math structure
What you call a data structure I call a pattern of memory layout in a von Neumann machine.
The reason to make this distinction. Consider this C type:
struct S {
T x;
struct S *a, *b;
}
Does this type represent a doubly linked list of Ts or a binary tree of Ts?
The fact that it could be both (or something still different) implies that C does not have the tools for building genuine data structures, just for memory layouting.
In 1991 I had collected up many such issues about how students brains are getting pickled by being brought up on C.
[Here with some uptodating http://blog.languager.org/2013/02/c-in-education-and-software-engineering.html ]
It used to be widely cited at one time including the C edition of Code Complete and also some C++ books.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-07-31 19:20 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 60+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-07-29 13:05 Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Emanuel Berg
2013-07-29 14:46 ` Jambunathan K
2013-07-30 10:10 ` Chris Van Dusen
[not found] ` <mailman.2115.1375179046.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-30 22:09 ` Emanuel Berg
[not found] ` <mailman.2028.1375109070.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-29 15:37 ` Rustom Mody
2013-07-29 16:01 ` Phillip Lord
2013-07-30 6:27 ` Luca Ferrari
2013-07-30 15:22 ` Aurélien DESBRIÈRES
2013-07-30 15:31 ` Aurélien DESBRIÈRES
[not found] ` <mailman.2162.1375198972.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-30 16:44 ` Rustom Mody
2013-07-30 18:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 18:01 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 11:38 ` Emanuel Berg
[not found] ` <mailman.2041.1375113728.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-30 11:47 ` Emanuel Berg
[not found] ` <mailman.2077.1375165681.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-30 11:56 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-29 19:38 ` Barry Margolin
2013-07-30 12:00 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 12:27 ` Rustom Mody
2013-07-30 14:59 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 15:08 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] ` <mailman.2155.1375196921.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-30 15:19 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 21:19 ` Barry Margolin
2013-07-30 21:33 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-31 4:47 ` Rustom Mody
2013-07-31 6:23 ` Rustom Mody
2013-07-31 18:11 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-31 19:19 ` drain
2013-07-31 19:20 ` Rustom Mody [this message]
2013-08-01 14:39 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-08-01 15:21 ` Rustom Mody
2013-08-01 15:27 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-08-01 15:42 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] ` <mailman.2318.1375371796.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-01 16:08 ` Rustom Mody
2013-08-01 16:43 ` Óscar Fuentes
2013-08-01 16:44 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] ` <mailman.2323.1375375948.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-01 20:48 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-08-03 1:01 ` drain
[not found] ` <mailman.2414.1375491715.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-03 10:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-08-04 21:23 ` drain
[not found] ` <mailman.2487.1375651440.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-05 8:36 ` LaTeX (was: Re: Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?") Emanuel Berg
2013-08-01 16:31 ` Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Emanuel Berg
2013-08-01 16:18 ` Drew Adams
[not found] ` <mailman.2321.1375374479.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-01 16:33 ` Barry Margolin
2013-08-01 17:52 ` Rustom Mody
2013-08-01 16:41 ` Emanuel Berg
[not found] ` <mailman.2251.1375298397.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-01 14:17 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-08-01 15:19 ` Luca Ferrari
2013-08-01 18:40 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-08-01 20:28 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 15:34 ` Phillip Lord
2013-07-31 0:47 ` gottlieb
[not found] ` <mailman.2161.1375198462.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-30 16:53 ` Rustom Mody
2013-07-31 0:49 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-31 12:10 ` Phillip Lord
2013-07-31 14:42 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] ` <mailman.2222.1375272627.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-08-01 7:40 ` R development environment Sebastien Vauban
2013-08-01 10:44 ` Phillip Lord
[not found] ` <mailman.2194.1375231670.12400.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2013-07-31 0:51 ` Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 21:50 ` Emanuel Berg
2013-07-30 10:10 ` Emanuel Berg
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