Emacs user manual in Spanish

Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Héctor Lahoz]

Hi.

I've been looking for a Spanish translation of the manual and
I couldn't find one. Well, I found one but it is clearly outdated
since it is for version 21.3.

Does anyone know if there is a more recent translation?
If there isn't, where (if possible) can I get the texinfo
sources? Could I somehow contact the authors of this Spanish
translation?

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Héctor Lahoz wrote:

> I've been looking for a Spanish translation
> of the manual and I couldn't find one. Well,
> I found one but it is clearly outdated since
> it is for version 21.3.

Perhaps there isn't any more recent edition.

Manuals are very tricky if they should be
translated or not.

In a perfect world the Emacs techno-science
conglomerate would hire professional tech
translators to get the job done.

However, in the imperfect anomaly which is the
current realm, those efforts are put on
enthusiasts that often underestimate the effort
and time to do a complete, proofread
translation. And when it comes to a manual, an
incomplete one may often be an injustice.

Manuals are part of technology - bugs must be
found and corrected. What could and should be
translated tho are "computer culture" books,
for example this one:

    @book{quarter-century-of-unix,
      title      = {A Quarter Century of UNIX},
      author     = {Peter Salus},
      publisher  = {Addison-Wesley},
      year       = 1994,
      ISBN       = 0201547775,
    }

Altho a great book on technology, that book
itself isn't really technology.

It is a fact that people are getting better and
better at English. When I was a kid, I was
amazed with the Germans and so on whose English
was way below our level. But now I've met
several Germans in their 20s and they speak
better English than I did when I was 20.

Especially for tech and science people, not
mastering English, at least with respect to
their own field(s), is to cripple them.
And a great way to learn is to read manuals and
other technology material.

> Does anyone know if there is a more recent
> translation? If there isn't, where (if
> possible) can I get the texinfo sources?
> Could I somehow contact the authors of this
> Spanish translation?

See if there is a Spanish language Emacs list
on Gmane - someone there might know.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

RE: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Drew Adams]

> Manuals are very tricky if they should be
> translated or not.
> 
> In a perfect world the Emacs techno-science
> conglomerate would hire professional tech
> translators to get the job done.
> 
> However, in the imperfect anomaly which is the
> current realm, those efforts are put on
> enthusiasts that often underestimate the effort
> and time to do a complete, proofread
> translation. And when it comes to a manual, an
> incomplete one may often be an injustice.

An incomplete - or badly translated - manual might
be an injustice.  But it might still be useful.
And an incomplete manual is not necessarily an injustice.

Not really wanting to get into this discussion (in
particular, I know nothing about it), here is a
comment anyway.

Rather than viewing that task as all-or-nothing:
(1) translate an entire manual and (2) keep it
up-to-date, perhaps an incremental, informal,
contributor-best-effort approach could be taken.

That's how it works on Emacs Wiki, for example.
Users interested in translating a given wiki page
do so.  They need not be interested, qualified, or
have the time to translate other pages.  Every
contribution can help.  And others can then update
pages or fix both technical and translation bugs.

Perhaps the HTML GNU Emacs manuals could offer a
similar possibility: Allow for anyone to translate
a given section into a given language, or update
such a translated section.

There could also be a "locked" version of such a
page, which is deemed pretty good at some point and
serves as an informal reference, while an unlocked,
"sandbox" version is open for anyone to improve upon.

This wouldn't preclude any systematic, thorough
translation effort.  It would offer something less
but easier for people to contribute to.  GNU would
not need to swear by the authority or authenticity
of such doc.  But it could still be quite helpful.

Presumably anyone could already work on this, just
by creating Emacs-Wiki pages that are translations
of manual sections.  IOW, it wouldn't even need to
be hosted by GNU.  Dunno whether there are copyright
considerations that get in the way in that case,
however.

Just an idea.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

> Presumably anyone could already work on this,
> just by creating Emacs-Wiki pages that are
> translations of manual sections. IOW, it
> wouldn't even need to be hosted by GNU.
> Dunno whether there are copyright
> considerations that get in the way in that
> case, however.
>
> Just an idea.

If you are into translating I think it is
better to put your efforts on the wiki, on
introductory or culture text, than on manuals
and reference books.

As the situation is with huge manuals, and
enthusiast-based efforts, these projects will
very seldom result in complete, trusted,
up-to-date documentation which is what you
should expect from a manual.

And: Why wouldn't Spanish-speaking programmers
and user of advanced technology acquire
English? Many, many have already done so and in
one or two generations it will be even
more widespread.

If they don't, it is a huge mistake on their
part and translating the manual won't help, I'm
afraid. No, trust the people. Every programmer
on this planet will soon know good
enough English!

As we say it, "development goes forward" :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 7:16, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> And: Why wouldn't Spanish-speaking programmers
> and user of advanced technology acquire
> English? Many, many have already done so and in
> one or two generations it will be even
> more widespread.

???

People who understand English can enable people who don't.
Once there are enough people who have access to ressource in their native language, there begins to be a production in the native language. And then people don't need the original language anymore. That's how it works. And that's a good thing.

It is only where there are not enough natives in a given language that there is a tendency to stick to the foreign language. It does not seem to be the case for Spanish. Plus technologies that have good ressources in the native language tend to be adopted first, for obvious reasons. So if we want Emacs and Lisp to be more popular with Spanish users it makes sense to produce the most Spanish documentation possible.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> People who understand English can enable
> people who don't. Once there are enough
> people who have access to ressource in their
> native language, there begins to be
> a production in the native language. And then
> people don't need the original language
> anymore. That's how it works. And that's
> a good thing.

Programming should be done and documented in
the old Anglo-American. This will benefit
everyone, native anglophones and everyone else.
Not just in the long run, but *now*.

English *is* the "native language" of computers
and computing. Deal with it.

> It is only where there are not enough natives
> in a given language that there is a tendency
> to stick to the foreign language. It does not
> seem to be the case for Spanish.
> Plus technologies that have good ressources
> in the native language tend to be adopted
> first, for obvious reasons. So if we want
> Emacs and Lisp to be more popular with
> Spanish users it makes sense to produce the
> most Spanish documentation possible.

It makes sense to produce introductory texts,
FAQs, and "culture" books in Spanish and every
other language. But not the technology itself.
And manuals and reference books are part
of technology.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 7:40, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> It makes sense to produce introductory texts,
> FAQs, and "culture" books in Spanish and every
> other language. But not the technology itself.
> And manuals and reference books are part
> of technology.

:) You speak from a minority language point of view. From where you stand that makes sense. There are not enough people who speak Swedish to create a technological market of ideas, hence the *need* to focus on English and to certainly not waste time on producing stuff in Swedish.

It is silly to pretend it is the same for languages that have populations ranging in the hundreds of millions. Especially for linguistic communities where the common economic market offers very strong incentives to produce in that language.

You also seem to conflate technology (specs etc.) and it's representation in native languages (references/manuals). Specs use "code" that mostly looks like English, but it is not English. "find-file" of "kill-region" are not English words, even if they look like English. They are arbitrary symbols. Learning the English language is not a required skill to have access to the meaning of such symbols and to be able to use them fluently: my daughter does not speak a word of English and is still able to fluently use all the alphabetical commands available in Minecraft. It would bring her zero benefit to focus on English acquisition before being allowed to play Minecraft. Or rather, it would frustrate her so much that she would give up all such technology and focus on playing with dolls who happen to speak the language that she wants them to speak...

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary
<jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

> :) You speak from a minority language point of view.
> From where you stand that makes sense. There are not
> enough people who speak Swedish to create
> a technological market of ideas, hence the *need* to
> focus on English and to certainly not waste time on
> producing stuff in Swedish.
>
> It is silly to pretend it is the same for languages
> that have populations ranging in the hundreds of
> millions. Especially for linguistic communities
> where the common economic market offers very strong
> incentives to produce in that language.

It doesn't matter that more people speak Spanish than
Swedish. Because how big the Spanish-speaking world of
computers will ever be, it will never be as big as the
English ditto. For the technology person, and probably
for many other persons as well, not acquiring English
will always be a huge injustice and mistake, no matter
what nationality this person belongs to.

> You also seem to conflate technology (specs etc.)
> and it's representation in native languages
> (references/manuals). Specs use "code" that mostly
> looks like English, but it is not English.
> "find-file" of "kill-region" are not English words,
> even if they look like English. They are
> arbitrary symbols.

find, file, kill, and region are English words.
Here they are applied to denote aspects of technology.
Many times when programming the ultimate designation
eludes you. You make it as good as you are able to at
that point. Indeed, you can choose a word that doesn't
relate to the function at hand, in a language that you
just made up, or in paleo-Etruscan if so be it.
But doing so will never make your software great and
you will never reach your potential as a programmer.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Óscar Fuentes]

Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> writes:

> Programming should be done and documented in
> the old Anglo-American. This will benefit
> everyone, native anglophones and everyone else.
> Not just in the long run, but *now*.

You seem to think that Emacs is just a programmer's tool. This is wrong.

I suspect that if you ask Stallman, he would say that Emacs should be
amenable to anyone who works with computers for any text-editing task.

The fact that Emacs has a wide acceptance as a programmer's tool but it
is a not so popular text editor for other purposes is a consequence of a
lack of development resources, which also explains why there are no
translations of the manual.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> You seem to think that Emacs is just a programmer's
> tool. This is wrong.

Being a programmer and being a serious Emacs user to
the point as to read the manual isn't a big difference
to me. It is both about being active with the best and
most advanced tools. Both personalities, if indeed
distinct, are vastly benefited from acquiring English.
As is actually evident from this very discussion!

> I suspect that if you ask Stallman, he would say
> that Emacs should be amenable to anyone who works
> with computers for any text-editing task.

Well, the next time Stallman has anything to say maybe
he can post a message of his own?

> The fact that Emacs has a wide acceptance as
> a programmer's tool but it is a not so popular text
> editor for other purposes is a consequence of a lack
> of development resources

At least that's one of many reasons.

> which also explains why there are no translations of
> the manual.

Indeed, if we could have professional tech translators
do it, do it well and complete, and keep it updated,
I would agree it would be good. I mean, any sufficiently
cool Spaniard could still pick up the English edition.
But there would be an option on an equal basis.

However, that isn't the case. As it is now, when
translations being at the enthusiast, spare-time
level, it is better to focus such desires on FAQs,
introductory text, and culture books, as this will
groom in people and act as a front.

When they are ready to take their game to the next
level, we'll have the reference and manual material
right at their fingertips.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 8:39, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> 
> I suspect that if you ask Stallman, he would say that Emacs should be
> amenable to anyone who works with computers for any text-editing task.

Last time I checked, Stallman was actually very supportive of work related to localizing Emacs. Technology is after all only a symbolic representation of concepts not specific to any native language.

Jean-Christophe

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> Technology is after all only a symbolic
> representation of concepts not specific to
> any native language.

The symbolic representation, or "what things
are called" as I usually put it, is a huge part
of any activity. Programming, and all
technology, has shown this. If every country
should have its own system, if in Sweden an
integer would be written a "heltal", and so on,
this would cripple whole software system,
people would have to relearn everything they
every knew, all international standardization
attempts would fail, and communication on
mailing lists and Usenet groups as we know it
would end. This nightmarish scenario will
luckily never happen.

It might be heartbreaking to some people that
English attained the status as the completely
dominating language in technology and
international exchange. But it is a fact.
And not a fluke. England was first with the
industrial revolution and then the USA peaking
its manufacturing empire in the 50s and 60s.
None of computing would have been the same
without the Anglophone world.

It might also be some properties of the
language itself, especially the ability to just
stack nouns to add properties, which isn't
around in every language.

Actually, the French did much to promote their
own systems and give them widespread use.
Like the metric system which was adopted in
Sweden in 1878. The French also have an
industrial standard, SI, or the "Système
international", which is ironic as they are the
only ones using it. In Sweden, for example, we
use the German industrial standard, or DIN.

The reason I tell all this is to illustrate how
there have always been competition between
nations, languages, and systems. And at least
in terms of computers, since several decades
a very clear winner has emerged, namely
English. To not acknowledge this, as a computer
or tech person, is to do yourself
a big injustice.

Luckily, again, this process is impossible to
stop. Young people all over the world use
technology more than ever and a bi-product of
this is their fluency in English. Very soon, no
one will have to worry about translating the
Emacs manual because no one will ask for
anything but the real deal.

Like I said, deal with it.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 11:32, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> Very soon, no
> one will have to worry about translating the
> Emacs manual because no one will ask for
> anything but the real deal.

The reality is actually that the trend it going the other way. More and more contents are translated and more translations create more demand for translation. The real deal is having quality native language ressources, not half backed "standard" English documentation written by non native speakers as is most often the case...

> Like I said, deal with it.

As I said, your minority language point of view does not reflect the the reality of most major languages speakers all over the world. Deal with it.

Jean-Christophe

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary
<jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

> The reality is actually that the trend it going the
> other way. More and more contents are translated and
> more translations create more demand for
> translation.

Dream on. Take the Unix man pages for example.
Despite thousands of man hours put into it (no pun
intended) there is no translation even close to
matching the English original. Except for possible the
French, incidentally.

> The real deal is having quality native language
> ressources, not half backed "standard" English
> documentation written by non native speakers as is
> most often the case...

There is nothing wrong with that. On the contrary.
In the USA, all thru its history and even today, there
are tons of people using English in ways that would
make an old English tutor in Manchester blush.
But that doesn't stop the technology from benefiting
immensely from it, as well as everything else.

> As I said, your minority language point of view does
> not reflect the the reality of most major languages
> speakers all over the world. Deal with it.

There is no minority language point of view. If it is,
French is as much a minority language. A bigger
minority, yes, but still a minority.

But again, mine point of view isn't my native
language, or Swedish, because my native technology
language *is* English. My entire education, five years
of CS, was in English - lectures, books, exams, every
program or piece of documentation we ever wrote.
Tho housed in Sweden, we were always a minority among
people from all over the world. A small, but obviously
very skilled minority :)

With the natural Anglophone world, i.e. the UK, the
USA, South Africa, to some extent India, as well as
many other places, with this huge natural English
speaking world, *in addition* to all the people who
have made English their native technology language,
and granted the role the Anglophone world has played
and is playing, even the big non-English languages
like Spanish, Russian, French and so on will *never*
be able to compete in full. If you don't acquire
English, you do yourself an injustice.

If you are on a Linux system, you might know the Linux
kernel was written by a university student in Finland.
OK, originally Unix is a US thing but nevermind.
Scandinavian and continental European contributions to
Linux are *immense*. Development communication is on
the Linux kernel mailing list, or LKML.
Traffic reaches thousands of posts every week.
And every single one of them - in English.

It is also telling that you keep brining up how small
my language is. OK, so how big does the language have
to be when people don't have to bother with English?

Actually it benefits whoever and it has nothing to do
with the size of their native language.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Aurélien Aptel]

I think both Emanuel and Jean-Christophe have good points, it's a
tricky situation.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> Actually, the French did much to promote their
> own systems and give them widespread use.
> Like the metric system which was adopted in
> Sweden in 1878. The French also have an
> industrial standard, SI, or the "Système
> international", which is ironic as they are the
> only ones using it. In Sweden, for example, we
> use the German industrial standard, or DIN.

Just nitpicking here but SI is actually just the formal name of the
metric system i.e. a set of measurement units. The industrial
standards you are thinking of might be the NF documents produced by
AFNOR. Most countries have their own (even Sweden (SIS)) which granted
is not always for industrial purposes but are national standards
none-the-less. I think it's a simple result of being an independent
country: you're bound to have country specific things and I don't see
anything wrong with it.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technical_standard_organisations#Nationally-based_standards_organizations

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 22:58, Aurélien Aptel <aurelien.aptel+emacs@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think both Emanuel and Jean-Christophe have good points, it's a
> tricky situation.

No it is not. We are talking about Free Software. People are free to contribute the way they want and not be stuck in such and such (linguistic or other) ideology. I seem to remember that a few years ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official language... Talk about silly...

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Nick Dokos]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

> ... I seem to remember that a few years
> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
> language... Talk about silly...
>

I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?

-- 
Nick

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 4, 2017, at 3:20, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
>> language... Talk about silly...
> 
> I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?

Google is your friend.

Jean-Christophe

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

>>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English
>>> as its official language... Talk about
>>> silly...
>> 
>> I don't believe that at all - do you have
>> a reference?
>
> Google is your friend.

There was a guy of Swedish academia, Rakowsky
or something like that, who at his university
unit had switched from Swedish to English.
That the university was already at that point
very internationalized, with English obviously
the language used, did not prevent Rakowsky
from suggesting all of Sweden switch to
English.

SVT, the state television, hosted a show with
Rakowsky and they also invited Horace Engdahl,
who was then head of the foundation who hands
out the Nobel Prize in Literature.
Engdahl didn't attent the show but submitted
a message which, translated to perhaps
unidiomatic English, runs

    I consider Rakowsky's suggestion lunacy of
    the first degree that does not deserve any
    serious consideration. Luckily, it is
    impossible to carry thru, but otherwise it
    would amount to the first collective
    suicide committed by any nation in
    world history.

:)

Maybe it was something like that when "Japan"
considered switching to English as well.
Because yes, that sounds very un-Japanese.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 4, 2017, at 18:49, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> Maybe it was something like that when "Japan"
> considered switching to English as well.
> Because yes, that sounds very un-Japanese.

It is not very un-Japanese at all. Japanese corporations are very pragmatic and will do everything to gain an edge on other global companies. The government being very close to major corporations, it was only a matter of years before such proposals officially came out in the open. You must imagine that if the *prime minister* suggests such policies officially, it has already been vetted by multiple layers of government officials.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> It is not very un-Japanese at all.
> Japanese corporations are very pragmatic and
> will do everything to gain an edge on other
> global companies.

They will gain an edge by learning English, if
they haven't already, not by dropping the
Japanese altogether.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Nick Dokos]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

>> On Jul 4, 2017, at 3:20, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
>>> language... Talk about silly...
>> 
>> I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?
>
> Google is your friend.
>

I did google it: there are various articles about (generally multinational) companies
adopting English as their "official" language. The only article I found about the
country doing so was a satirical piece about "Engrish".

So I repeat: do you have a reference?

-- 
Nick

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 6, 2017, at 2:54, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>>> On Jul 4, 2017, at 3:20, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>>>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
>>>> language... Talk about silly...
>>> 
>>> I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?
>> 
>> Google is your friend.
>> 
> 
> I did google it: there are various articles about (generally multinational) companies
> adopting English as their "official" language. The only article I found about the
> country doing so was a satirical piece about "Engrish".
> 
> So I repeat: do you have a reference?

Are you genuinely asking for a reference ? Are you actually reading this thread or just trolling ? I gave plenty of reference in the discussion. So find yourself the relevant keywords and do the search again.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Nick Dokos]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

>> On Jul 6, 2017, at 2:54, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>>> On Jul 4, 2017, at 3:20, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>>>>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
>>>>> language... Talk about silly...
>>>> 
>>>> I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?
>>> 
>>> Google is your friend.
>>> 
>> 
>> I did google it: there are various articles about (generally multinational) companies
>> adopting English as their "official" language. The only article I found about the
>> country doing so was a satirical piece about "Engrish".
>> 
>> So I repeat: do you have a reference?
>
> Are you genuinely asking for a reference ? Are you actually reading
> this thread or just trolling ? I gave plenty of reference in the
> discussion. So find yourself the relevant keywords and do the search
> again.
>

You gave absolutely no references - I read the discussion as it was
happening, but I also went back and read every response of
yours. Obviously, this is a tangential point, but it is interesting to
me, so I googled and got zilch: maybe my google-fu is weak, which is
why I asked for a reference.  So if you have one, I'd appreciate it.
If not, just say so.

-- 
Nick

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Stephen Berman]

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 09:27:14 -0400 Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> On Jul 6, 2017, at 2:54, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 4, 2017, at 3:20, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>>>>>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
>>>>>> language... Talk about silly...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?
>>>> 
>>>> Google is your friend.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I did google it: there are various articles about (generally multinational)
>>> companies
>>> adopting English as their "official" language. The only article I found about the
>>> country doing so was a satirical piece about "Engrish".
>>> 
>>> So I repeat: do you have a reference?
>>
>> Are you genuinely asking for a reference ? Are you actually reading
>> this thread or just trolling ? I gave plenty of reference in the
>> discussion. So find yourself the relevant keywords and do the search
>> again.
>>
>
> You gave absolutely no references - I read the discussion as it was
> happening, but I also went back and read every response of
> yours. Obviously, this is a tangential point, but it is interesting to
> me, so I googled and got zilch: maybe my google-fu is weak, which is
> why I asked for a reference.  So if you have one, I'd appreciate it.
> If not, just say so.

How about this?

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/adv/wol/dy/opinion/culture_100823.html

Steve Berman

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Stephen Berman wrote:

> http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/adv/wol/dy/opinion/culture_100823.html

People say you should never try to tell
a Japanese engineer anything because he (she?)
will ignite. So I think no one is really
contemplating telling him he should stop
speaking Japanese!

Having the board speak English in a company
where the head speaks English and nothing else
(tellingly, by the way) as well as efforts to
do it to some extent in schools (which I think
is completely natural) isn't anything close to
a complete switch.

You know the story of male fashion? No one ever
cares for it. They did a designed, expensive
male jacket and tried to sell it. No one bought
it. Then then PR guy thought about the interest
in history that many males have. So he put an
all but invisible sticker to the jacket saying
it once had belonged to an old Japanese
fisherman. And the next week, all stock was
gone :)

I don't know if it is a true story but
God willing that old Japanese fisherman will
carry on fishing and speaking Japanese for many
years to come :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Nick Dokos]

Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@gmx.net> writes:

> On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 09:27:14 -0400 Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> On Jul 6, 2017, at 2:54, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 4, 2017, at 3:20, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ... I seem to remember that a few years
>>>>>>> ago, Japan was considering adopting English as its official
>>>>>>> language... Talk about silly...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't believe that at all - do you have a reference?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Google is your friend.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I did google it: there are various articles about (generally multinational)
>>>> companies
>>>> adopting English as their "official" language. The only article I found about the
>>>> country doing so was a satirical piece about "Engrish".
>>>> 
>>>> So I repeat: do you have a reference?
>>>
>>> Are you genuinely asking for a reference ? Are you actually reading
>>> this thread or just trolling ? I gave plenty of reference in the
>>> discussion. So find yourself the relevant keywords and do the search
>>> again.
>>>
>>
>> You gave absolutely no references - I read the discussion as it was
>> happening, but I also went back and read every response of
>> yours. Obviously, this is a tangential point, but it is interesting to
>> me, so I googled and got zilch: maybe my google-fu is weak, which is
>> why I asked for a reference.  So if you have one, I'd appreciate it.
>> If not, just say so.
>
> How about this?
>
> http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/adv/wol/dy/opinion/culture_100823.html
>

Thanks - I did find that and it contains some useful references but I
was looking for a more "official" position, not an opinion piece (not
necessarily a statement by the government, but something from a
reputable source reporting that the government was considering it).
Also, this is dated Aug. 23, 2010.

There are plenty of Japanese multinationals that are adopting English
as their "official" language. That certainly creates pressure on the
government to adopt a more flexible policy: I wondered whether there
is any tangible manifestation of that pressure having any effect on the
government (yet).

Again, I realize this is tangential and I don't want to hijack the
thread any more than I have already. If anybody finds additional
references, I will gladly accept them in private email.

The Google search I tried by the way was "japan english official
language" and several variations that didn't really change much.

Thanks!
-- 
Nick

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Nick Dokos wrote:

> Again, I realize this is tangential and
> I don't want to hijack the thread any more
> than I have already.

Don't worry, the thread is dead so the brigands
might as well have what's left of it :)

I wonder if the OP still read this thread.
I advised him to browse the Gmane server for
a Spanish speaking Emacs group, but I don't
know if he ever did. Anyway, on nntp.aioe.org
I didn't find any; on news.gmane.org I found
but a single one:

    K    576: gmane.org.user-groups.emacs.spanish

576! So much for a huge hispanic Emacs world.
But I don't know. Maybe they are somewhere else
still? I suppose the truth is out there.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Óscar Fuentes]

Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> writes:

> I wonder if the OP still read this thread.
> I advised him to browse the Gmane server for
> a Spanish speaking Emacs group, but I don't
> know if he ever did. Anyway, on nntp.aioe.org
> I didn't find any; on news.gmane.org I found
> but a single one:
>
>     K    576: gmane.org.user-groups.emacs.spanish
>
> 576! So much for a huge hispanic Emacs world.
> But I don't know. Maybe they are somewhere else
> still? I suppose the truth is out there.

You are falling into the trap of the self-full-filing prophecy. Since
using Emacs requires to know English, people who do not meet that
requirement does not use Emacs, and people who do use the English
forums.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> You are falling into the trap of the
> self-full-filing prophecy. Since using Emacs
> requires to know English, people who do not
> meet that requirement does not use Emacs, and
> people who do use the English forums.

Well, one could think of the scenario that
a person knows good enough English to use
a piece of software which is in English, write
code or whatever in what is some version of
English, but when discussing things, asking for
help etc. would prefer to do so in his
native language.

That said, in the discussion there was the
point raised that ~"people who come from huge
langauge groups (not English) don't need to
learn English as much as people from small
languages because they (the big language
people) have like a parallel structure where
they can use the software and discuss it in in
their native language".

And indeed, the Gmane server list has 37 hits
for "spanish", and the aioe one has 11. [1]

But only one Emacs related, with close to
zero activity.

Indeed, I think many hispanic people use Emacs
and in time God willing they will show up here
as well when their general English skills
improve which has already happened quickly in
France, Germany, Russia, and in many other
countries as well.

[1] The respective digits for "french" is
    79-15, for "german" 103-98, for "swedish"
    5-5, and so on.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

>> How about this?
>> 
>> http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/adv/wol/dy/opinion/culture_100823.html
>> 
> 
> Thanks - I did find that and it contains some useful references but I
> was looking for a more "official" position, not an opinion piece (not
> necessarily a statement by the government, but something from a
> reputable source reporting that the government was considering it).
> Also, this is dated Aug. 23, 2010.

"the media widely covered the report of the Commission on Japan's Goals in the 21st Century commissioned by the late Prime Minister Obuchi in December 1999, which noted that adoption of English as the second official language needed to be discussed"

> There are plenty of Japanese multinationals that are adopting English
> as their "official" language. That certainly creates pressure on the
> government to adopt a more flexible policy:

No, it is irrelevant.

> I wondered whether there
> is any tangible manifestation of that pressure having any effect on the
> government (yet).

You have the problem backward.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Óscar Fuentes]

Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:

> You gave absolutely no references - I read the discussion as it was
> happening, but I also went back and read every response of
> yours. Obviously, this is a tangential point, but it is interesting to
> me, so I googled and got zilch: maybe my google-fu is weak, which is
> why I asked for a reference.  So if you have one, I'd appreciate it.
> If not, just say so.

"English could become Japan's official second language"

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2000/feb/23/tefl1

There is an April's Fool prank dated several years later, but the
article above seems serious enough.

As a curiosity, please note that Japan, as many other countries, has no
official language.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Nick Dokos]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> You gave absolutely no references - I read the discussion as it was
>> happening, but I also went back and read every response of
>> yours. Obviously, this is a tangential point, but it is interesting to
>> me, so I googled and got zilch: maybe my google-fu is weak, which is
>> why I asked for a reference.  So if you have one, I'd appreciate it.
>> If not, just say so.
>
> "English could become Japan's official second language"
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/education/2000/feb/23/tefl1
>
> There is an April's Fool prank dated several years later, but the
> article above seems serious enough.
>

Thanks - N.B. that's the same commission report from 2000 that was
mentioned in the opinion piece in a previous message in this thread.

> As a curiosity, please note that Japan, as many other countries, has no
> official language.
>

-- 
Nick

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:33, Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks - N.B. that's the same commission report from 2000 that was
> mentioned in the opinion piece in a previous message in this thread.

Yes, that's a report commissioned by Prime Minister Obuchi in 1999, that's what I was talking about in the comment you did not believe, that Japan had been considering adopting English as official language. And it's not even the first time. During the Meiji era there were similar discussion.

What more do you need to believe what I wrote?

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> Yes, that's a report commissioned by Prime
> Minister Obuchi in 1999, that's what I was
> talking about in the comment you did not
> believe, that Japan had been considering
> adopting English as official language.
> And it's not even the first time. During the
> Meiji era there were similar discussion.
>
> What more do you need to believe what
> I wrote?

Hey, you don't have to be angry with everyone.
They guy asked for a reference. That's all.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Aurélien Aptel wrote:

> Just nitpicking here but SI is actually just
> the formal name of the metric system i.e.
> a set of measurement units. The industrial
> standards you are thinking of might be the NF
> documents produced by AFNOR. Most countries
> have their own (even Sweden (SIS)) which
> granted is not always for industrial purposes
> but are national standards none-the-less.

OK... so what is the name of the French
industrial standard? NF?

Sweden may have SIS in theory, and perhaps in
practice (somewhere), but if you open the
catalog from the hardware store, which is
completely in Swedish by the way, and look up
an M5 A4 hex lock nut, it says DIN 985.
("Verify", as it says in the textbooks :))

So in practice it seems the German industrial
standard DIN is used in Sweden.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Aurélien Aptel <aurelien.aptel+emacs@gmail.com>
writes:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technical_standard_organisations#Nationally-based_standards_organizations

Sorry, now I see the link. Answer:

AFNOR — Association française de normalisation

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Devin Prater]

The biggest problem would be, then: what about other packages in
Elpa/Melpa? What about accessibility systems which use Emacs, like
Emacspeak or even Speechd-el? Those would have to be translated as well,
and for Emacspeak, which deals a lot with actually helping the user to
know what content is, rather than just reading it to them, it can be a
big job translating all that. Of course, Google Translate could do all
that, but if we're not going that rout, then we do need to consider
other packages besides the root: Emacs.
-- 
Devin Prater
      assistive Technology Instructor in training
      World services for the blind
      

Aurélien Aptel <aurelien.aptel+emacs@gmail.com> writes:

> I think both Emanuel and Jean-Christophe have good points, it's a
> tricky situation.
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
>> Actually, the French did much to promote their
>> own systems and give them widespread use.
>> Like the metric system which was adopted in
>> Sweden in 1878. The French also have an
>> industrial standard, SI, or the "Système
>> international", which is ironic as they are the
>> only ones using it. In Sweden, for example, we
>> use the German industrial standard, or DIN.
>
> Just nitpicking here but SI is actually just the formal name of the
> metric system i.e. a set of measurement units. The industrial
> standards you are thinking of might be the NF documents produced by
> AFNOR. Most countries have their own (even Sweden (SIS)) which granted
> is not always for industrial purposes but are national standards
> none-the-less. I think it's a simple result of being an independent
> country: you're bound to have country specific things and I don't see
> anything wrong with it.
>
> 1:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technical_standard_organisations#Nationally-based_standards_organizations

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Devin Prater wrote:

> The biggest problem would be, then: what
> about other packages in Elpa/Melpa?
> What about accessibility systems which use
> Emacs, like Emacspeak or even Speechd-el?
> Those would have to be translated as well,
> and for Emacspeak, which deals a lot with
> actually helping the user to know what
> content is, rather than just reading it to
> them, it can be a big job translating all
> that. Of course, Google Translate could do
> all that, but if we're not going that rout,
> then we do need to consider other packages
> besides the root: Emacs.

In all fairness, I don't think the suggestion
ever was that *everything* should be translated
into *every* language. If that were to happen,
global unemployment would be eradicated in the
bargain. But of course it is
totally unrealistic.

Problem is, even translating key individual
elements is posing a challenge. And no matter
how successful that effort would be, it would
never be complete.

People who would rely on it would always be at
a huge disadvantage no matter what.

No, people will have to learn English.
Plain and simple. And they are, so no
worries :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

RE: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Drew Adams]

> In all fairness, I don't think the suggestion
> ever was that *everything* should be translated
> into *every* language. If that were to happen,
> global unemployment would be eradicated in the bargain.

Finally!  I've been waiting for that headline for
a long time: "Emacs Ends Unemployment".

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean Louis]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 01:39:01AM +0200, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> writes:
> 
> > Programming should be done and documented in
> > the old Anglo-American. This will benefit
> > everyone, native anglophones and everyone else.
> > Not just in the long run, but *now*.
> 
> You seem to think that Emacs is just a programmer's tool. This is wrong.
> 
> I suspect that if you ask Stallman, he would say that Emacs should be
> amenable to anyone who works with computers for any text-editing task.

I have employed not-so-skilled people in Tanzania to provide
translations of Swahili to business text.

Each of them has got to learn basics of GNU Emacs.

My procedure that I give to people is simple:

1) Read the GNU Emacs Tutorial, go through the tutorial, and if there
is anything they don't understand, we clarify it.

2) Start working.

And this alone works well. I get translated documents and files and
reports this way.

GNU Emacs is just good for total beginners, and I am proving it all
over again.

Jean

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Héctor Lahoz]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> And: Why wouldn't Spanish-speaking programmers
> and user of advanced technology acquire
> English? Many, many have already done so and in
> one or two generations it will be even
> more widespread.

I like English for its simplicity. And it is clear
that we need a universal language. And I think
English is a good choice. But free software is
about freedom. I don't like people who try to
impose their thoughts or their language. If
someone doesn't want to invest time and effort to
acquire some language, he is in his right. And I
think it would be good that someone who doesn't
speak English could use Emacs efficiently for
non-programming tasks. I'm not talking about
translating commands which would be (maybe)
nonsense. But the manual is the starting point.
I think it should be available in other languages.
Not just Spanish.

> If they don't, it is a huge mistake on their
> part and translating the manual won't help, I'm
> afraid. No, trust the people. Every programmer
> on this planet will soon know good
> enough English!

I agree.

But bear in mind that Emacs is not just for
programmers. All the modes for human languages can
be used by non-programmers. And many users of
Emacs are not programmers.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Héctor Lahoz wrote:

> But the manual is the starting point. I think
> it should be available in other languages.
> Not just Spanish.

But it isn't. And on the enthusiast basis, it
is very difficult thing to achieve. Perhaps the
Google/wiki-translate solutions will help but
that remains to be seen.

> But bear in mind that Emacs is not just for
> programmers. All the modes for human
> languages can be used by non-programmers.
> And many users of Emacs are not programmers.

Everyone who uses Emacs who speak English will
have an advantage to a person using Emacs who
doesn't speak English. Translating will never
change that which is why everyone, programmer
or not, is encouraged to learn English.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 7:02, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> That's how it works on Emacs Wiki, for example.
> Users interested in translating a given wiki page
> do so.  They need not be interested, qualified, or
> have the time to translate other pages.  Every
> contribution can help.  And others can then update
> pages or fix both technical and translation bugs.
> 
> Perhaps the HTML GNU Emacs manuals could offer a
> similar possibility: Allow for anyone to translate
> a given section into a given language, or update
> such a translated section.

That's a very interesting idea. How hard do you think it would be to create a wiki version of the Emacs manual ?

There are plenty of translation projects that work on an online interface and where translators contribute just a few paragraphs, and the quality is just sufficient to be useful (and it can be updated by anyone else).

Jean-Christophe 

RE: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Drew Adams]

> > That's how it works on Emacs Wiki, for example.
> > Users interested in translating a given wiki page
> > do so.  They need not be interested, qualified, or
> > have the time to translate other pages.  Every
> > contribution can help.  And others can then update
> > pages or fix both technical and translation bugs.
> >
> > Perhaps the HTML GNU Emacs manuals could offer a
> > similar possibility: Allow for anyone to translate
> > a given section into a given language, or update
> > such a translated section.
> 
> That's a very interesting idea. How hard do you think it
> would be to create a wiki version of the Emacs manual ?

I don't know.  I'm no expert on any of this.  Alex
Schroeder, the wiki maintainer, might know something
about this.

Certainly the text for a section could be copied and
pasted to a wiki page manually.  But (1) formatting
would presumably be lost and need to be created anew
to make the page user-friendly. And (2) probably you
meant doing so programmatically - I can't speak to that.

And as I wondered out loud previously, there might be
some problem wrt the GNU copyright and allowing ad hoc
modification (dunno).  Perhaps there could be some way
to have an unofficial, modifiable copy (dunno).

> There are plenty of translation projects that work on an online
> interface and where translators contribute just a few paragraphs,
> and the quality is just sufficient to be useful (and it can be
> updated by anyone else).

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Alex Schroeder]

Hi all

It would definitely be possible. We could translate the texinfo to wiki markup automatically. Many years ago I had written such a similar thing for Emacs Wiki: it translated the entire wiki to texinfo and then turned it into an info file for offline viewing. But it got lost. And the wiki kept growing.

Perhaps there is already a texinfo to markdown translator available via pandoc and we could hook into that. Add some markdown rules to the wiki markup, for example.

The problem would be getting back to texinfo and producing a good looking print version of the manual, however. And what about manually generating the texinfo menus? 

Unless of course one would deem an online wiki good enough, of course.

Cheers
Alex
-- 
Typed on a tiny keyboard. Sorry for being terse.

On 3 Jul 2017, at 00:32, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

>>> That's how it works on Emacs Wiki, for example.
>>> Users interested in translating a given wiki page
>>> do so.  They need not be interested, qualified, or
>>> have the time to translate other pages.  Every
>>> contribution can help.  And others can then update
>>> pages or fix both technical and translation bugs.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the HTML GNU Emacs manuals could offer a
>>> similar possibility: Allow for anyone to translate
>>> a given section into a given language, or update
>>> such a translated section.
>> 
>> That's a very interesting idea. How hard do you think it
>> would be to create a wiki version of the Emacs manual ?
> 
> I don't know.  I'm no expert on any of this.  Alex
> Schroeder, the wiki maintainer, might know something
> about this.
> 
> Certainly the text for a section could be copied and
> pasted to a wiki page manually.  But (1) formatting
> would presumably be lost and need to be created anew
> to make the page user-friendly. And (2) probably you
> meant doing so programmatically - I can't speak to that.
> 
> And as I wondered out loud previously, there might be
> some problem wrt the GNU copyright and allowing ad hoc
> modification (dunno).  Perhaps there could be some way
> to have an unofficial, modifiable copy (dunno).
> 
>> There are plenty of translation projects that work on an online
>> interface and where translators contribute just a few paragraphs,
>> and the quality is just sufficient to be useful (and it can be
>> updated by anyone else).

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 14:22, Alex Schroeder <kensanata@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The problem would be getting back to texinfo and producing a good looking print version of the manual, however.

If the texi → markdown conversion keeps the original metadata (all the tag labels for ex) it should not be too hard to produce a texi version.

If the metadata is lost, then the solution is to create a bilingual data set with the English and the translated data set and use that bilingual data set (either in po or tmx format) as a reference against the original texi English in a dedicated tool (po edit, OmegaT etc.). That also allows for some extra proofreading.

> Unless of course one would deem an online wiki good enough, of course.

There are plenty of tools that only maintain online documentation (WordPress' Codex is exclusively in mediawiki format). That could be a solution until the texi→ markdown → texi roundtrip is finalized.

Jean-Christophe

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> That's a very interesting idea. How hard do
> you think it would be to create a wiki
> version of the Emacs manual ?

Technically, very easy as there is already an
Emacs wiki and an Emacs manual and anyone feel
free to create a page dealing with any topic
discussed in the manual in whatever language
you choose and start adding material.

> There are plenty of translation projects that
> work on an online interface and where
> translators contribute just a few paragraphs,
> and the quality is just sufficient to be
> useful (and it can be updated by anyone
> else).

In some cases it is a great method to translate
stuff. In other areas, such as novels where
a personal and somewhat consistent style is
good, I suppose it could be an OK method
lacking other alternatives. In other areas,
such as technology, it doesn't matter if the
method is good or bad if the idea is bad.
Which it is, here. Technology shouldn't
be translated.

If people won't come to technology, forcing it
closer to people won't help - it will only
create confusion, and those who want it will
not be helped by it, on the contrary.

Hey, why don't we translate Emacs Lisp? We can
start with Swedish!

    `find-file'   = `öppna-fil'
    `kill-region' = `radera-stycke'

Oh, that's right. We don't do it because it is
a bad idea.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 7:35, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey, why don't we translate Emacs Lisp? We can
> start with Swedish!
> 
>    `find-file'   = `öppna-fil'
>    `kill-region' = `radera-stycke'
> 
> Oh, that's right. We don't do it because it is
> a bad idea.

Well, actually Scheme allows for that in a trivial way and it's an excellent tool to bring technology to more people. Requiring millions of people to learn enough of a native language to allow them to access a tiny subset of that language is a waste of human ressources. *That* is the bad idea.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary
<jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

> Requiring millions of people to learn enough of
> a native language to allow them to access a tiny
> subset of that language is a waste of human
> ressources. *That* is the bad idea.

You want the technology and everything else to be
available in every language there is so that no one
will have to learn English? Interesting world that
would be, eh?

And what are you talking about? I know more than
a tiny subset of English and so do you and everyone
else that is a non-native speaker on this list.

You yourself are here, taking part in discussion with
Emacs and technology people from all over the world.
Isn't that both something both very practical and
even amazing?

Why would you want people to be limited by language
barriers to their national communities? Even here,
there are so few guys who use and discuss Emacs.
Can you imagine me being stuck with the Swedish guys
and you the French and Belgian? I would be one tenth
the tech person I am today if I were stuck here, and
I don't care how many books were translated to
compensate (which, by the way, hasn't happen and could
never happen).

When we instead can bring everyone here to use and
discuss the same awesome technology and have access to
the same material?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 8:17, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> You yourself are here, taking part in discussion with
> Emacs and technology people from all over the world.
> Isn't that both something both very practical and
> even amazing?

And for the 2 of us who exchange polite platitudes here, there are thousands who exchange technical knowledge in native language user lists. The proof is in the pudding !

What is amazing is not that we do what we do in English. But that Emacs and lisp and any other technology allows us to do things that extend our human basic abilities.

Never forget the story about the finger pointing at the moon.

Jean-Christophe

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary
<jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

> And for the 2 of us who exchange polite platitudes

...at least you don't anymore.

> here, there are thousands who exchange technical
> knowledge in native language user lists.

Why don't you join them, if you think that is better?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 8:31, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary
> <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> And for the 2 of us who exchange polite platitudes
> 
> ...at least you don't anymore.

What do you mean ? You've kept sending platitudes about translation and technology and I've kept polite during all that exchange. Has anything changed?

>> here, there are thousands who exchange technical
>> knowledge in native language user lists.
> 
> Why don't you join them, if you think that is better?

Well, I actually do that in fields that I think I have a competence for. Like translation. And I try t stick to that. For the rest, I learn, in whatever language the information is available.

Jean-Christophe

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean Louis]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 12:35:46AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Hey, why don't we translate Emacs Lisp? We can
> start with Swedish!
> 
>     `find-file'   = `öppna-fil'
>     `kill-region' = `radera-stycke'
> 
> Oh, that's right. We don't do it because it is
> a bad idea.

There is nothing wrong in translating function names to offer easier
way of editing to people who are maybe not familiar with the English
and GNU Emacs in general.

That same process has been done since computers became available in
many countries.

Finally, original functions may remain just the same, and the key ones
can be contributive to the editing work in a particular country.

Many countries are not English speaking, just look at Tanzania with 45
millions Swahili speaking people, who really have trouble
understanding even their own language, unspoken of English. It is
totally different environment than Uganda or Kenya.

45 millions people can easily understand 20 basic functions in their
own language and their bindings.

Translations always have sense and reason, and the translation is
usually the first pioneering step to enter into the market of a
foreign country.

It also helps in distributing free software into new areas.

Jean

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> There is nothing wrong in translating
> function names to offer easier way of editing
> to people who are maybe not familiar with the
> English and GNU Emacs in general.

By translating "function names", are we talking
hanging a translated coat over the menus and
buttons of the GUI Emacs or are we talking
aliasing all the zillion commands of Elisp?

The "coat" solution is something I saw way back
in the accursed Java/Eclipse world when there
were "resources" who mapped back and forth.

I suppose I don't really mind if the program is
intended for the masses. At some point the user
will anyway realize that having a subset
translated is just confusing and a limitation,
and he/she will have the whole application
in English.

However Emacs is one of the most advanced and
powerful software systems ever created. And you
are saying you are teaching this system to
students in Tanzania with no problem, only at
the same time these people cannot understand
the English of `find-file', `kill-emacs', and
so on?

And if they cannot understand that, and you
won't have them since you walk around the
problem by translating the commands, how do you
ever expect them to take the next step and
benefit from the whole system, all external
components, and all documentation, all of which
is only available in English?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Devin Prater]

Here is one little suggestion: Why not try using Google Translate for
the roughest, but most complete start, then have people clean it up
where necisary?
-- 
Devin Prater
      assistive Technology Instructor in training
      World services for the blind
      

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> Manuals are very tricky if they should be
>> translated or not.
>> 
>> In a perfect world the Emacs techno-science
>> conglomerate would hire professional tech
>> translators to get the job done.
>> 
>> However, in the imperfect anomaly which is the
>> current realm, those efforts are put on
>> enthusiasts that often underestimate the effort
>> and time to do a complete, proofread
>> translation. And when it comes to a manual, an
>> incomplete one may often be an injustice.
>
> An incomplete - or badly translated - manual might
> be an injustice.  But it might still be useful.
> And an incomplete manual is not necessarily an injustice.
>
> Not really wanting to get into this discussion (in
> particular, I know nothing about it), here is a
> comment anyway.
>
> Rather than viewing that task as all-or-nothing:
> (1) translate an entire manual and (2) keep it
> up-to-date, perhaps an incremental, informal,
> contributor-best-effort approach could be taken.
>
> That's how it works on Emacs Wiki, for example.
> Users interested in translating a given wiki page
> do so.  They need not be interested, qualified, or
> have the time to translate other pages.  Every
> contribution can help.  And others can then update
> pages or fix both technical and translation bugs.
>
> Perhaps the HTML GNU Emacs manuals could offer a
> similar possibility: Allow for anyone to translate
> a given section into a given language, or update
> such a translated section.
>
> There could also be a "locked" version of such a
> page, which is deemed pretty good at some point and
> serves as an informal reference, while an unlocked,
> "sandbox" version is open for anyone to improve upon.
>
> This wouldn't preclude any systematic, thorough
> translation effort.  It would offer something less
> but easier for people to contribute to.  GNU would
> not need to swear by the authority or authenticity
> of such doc.  But it could still be quite helpful.
>
> Presumably anyone could already work on this, just
> by creating Emacs-Wiki pages that are translations
> of manual sections.  IOW, it wouldn't even need to
> be hosted by GNU.  Dunno whether there are copyright
> considerations that get in the way in that case,
> however.
>
> Just an idea. 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 13:52, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Here is one little suggestion: Why not try using Google Translate for
> the roughest, but most complete start, then have people clean it up
> where necisary?

Because GT is a good tool only for experienced translators who fully understand the source text.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary
<jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> writes:

> Because GT is a good tool only for experienced
> translators who fully understand the source text.

Well, you become a blacksmith when you hammer.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean Louis]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 02:11:44PM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> 
> > On Jul 3, 2017, at 13:52, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Here is one little suggestion: Why not try using Google Translate for
> > the roughest, but most complete start, then have people clean it up
> > where necisary?
> 
> Because GT is a good tool only for experienced translators who fully understand the source text.

I guess it is quite easy to make Emacs function to translate the
region or word by using the Google Translation API.

Jean

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> writes:

> Here is one little suggestion: Why not try using
> Google Translate for the roughest, but most complete
> start, then have people clean it up where necisary?

Good idea, some guys would have to read thru the
entire thing very carefully and a lot of cleaning will
be called for. Even so, I think the amount of time
spent can be cut drastically this way.

GT, once perhaps rightfully frown upon, has gotten
a lot better and God willing it will be even better in
the future.

But, while no doubt a tool for jobs like this,
obviously it can never be a substitute the human
ability to read, write and speak English...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean Louis]

On Sun, Jul 02, 2017 at 11:52:14PM -0500, Devin Prater wrote:
> Here is one little suggestion: Why not try using Google Translate for
> the roughest, but most complete start, then have people clean it up
> where necisary?
> -- 
> Devin Prater
>       assistive Technology Instructor in training
>       World services for the blind

I made a simple database program where I enter all the words, and
automatically request translations from Google Translation API, so it
can be automatized easily.

Jean

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Héctor Lahoz]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> It is a fact that people are getting better and
> better at English. When I was a kid, I was
> amazed with the Germans and so on whose English
> was way below our level. But now I've met
> several Germans in their 20s and they speak
> better English than I did when I was 20.

I agree.

> Especially for tech and science people, not
> mastering English, at least with respect to
> their own field(s), is to cripple them.
> And a great way to learn is to read manuals and
> other technology material.

I agree again. But the point is that perhaps some
people don't come to technology because of language
barrier issues. Perhaps if they could understand
the manual or understand it more easily they would
be more willing to come closer.

Somewhere I read that everyone who wants to use
Emacs or does use it understands English. Maybe.
But the question to be answered is: "is there
anyone who doesn't use Emacs because he can't
access the knowledge?" Or put it another way:
"There would be more people using Emacs if they
didn't need to learn English to use it?"

I also agree that technology shouldn't be
translated. Just because translations add nothing
in terms of knowledge or development. But it would
be just a help. You just put the notice "this
manual is not authoritative. In case of doubt
consult the original in English" and that's it.

I think it could help some people, making technology
closer to them.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Héctor Lahoz wrote:

> I think it could help some people, making
> technology closer to them.

I agree it would be optimal to have great
translations of everything. If anyone, or
a group of people pulled it off, I would be
super impressed.

But if someone asked me, "is it a good idea to
do?" I would answer "No, there are many of
things you could do that will be more pleasant
and creative for you, and have a bigger impact
for everyone else as well."

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean Louis]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 12:17:16PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Héctor Lahoz wrote:
> 
> > I think it could help some people, making
> > technology closer to them.
> 
> I agree it would be optimal to have great
> translations of everything. If anyone, or
> a group of people pulled it off, I would be
> super impressed.
> 
> But if someone asked me, "is it a good idea to
> do?" I would answer "No, there are many of
> things you could do that will be more pleasant
> and creative for you, and have a bigger impact
> for everyone else as well."

That question you are making there "is it a good idea to do?" is
obviously directed only to you, and you look at it from your corner or
view point.

Is it good for "me" to translate it? I have more important things to
do, like watching series... 😈

Is it good for students to have a native language software?

Yes, it is very good. So translating job is maybe not good for an
individual, but is very beneficial for the targeting group of people.

Millions of students could have access to free software which they do
not have now.

It increases the popularity of software just as books. It penetrates
the markets which were earlier not known as possible.

It is easy to sit on the desktop in a developed country. But come over
to Africa, Uganda or Tanzania, to see what is work, what is effort,
and how students are surviving.

And students are just one group of people who would greatly benefit of
translations of software.

Teachers, professors, engineers would benefit too.

Those who do not travel will maybe assume that the world runs on
English language, but it does not.

We have a planet here.

Jean

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> That question you are making there "is it
> a good idea to do?" is obviously directed
> only to you, and you look at it from your
> corner or view point. [...]
>
> Is it good for students to have a native
> language software?
>
> Yes, it is very good.

It is much better for them to learn English.

It might even be a bad idea to have them use
translated software as 1) such a translation
will be incomplete and suboptimal by
definition, and 2) this hinders their progress
in English.

A good way to learn English is to use
technology in English. I think this is a huge
part in all the young Germans etc.
suddenly speaking English very, very good.
Why this can't happen in Tanzania as well,
the devil knows.

I started to use a computer many years before
my age consisted of two digits. Software in
Swedish were unheard of the thought never
crossed anyones mind. Nonetheless I never had
any problems - except for the "King's Quest",
"Space Quest" and such games which tought me
the unidiomatic English of "open door", "get
dagger", etc. [1]

If an 8-year-old can do that, surely any young
adult who is learning how to operate *Emacs*
can do it!

[1] Perhaps the Russian guys have been playing
    those games as well :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jul 8, 2017, at 2:26, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
> It is much better for them to learn English.

You keep repeating that without adding anything to support that claim.

Technology is not an end in itself. What you do with it is. And you do it in local communities in native language.

Jean-Christophe 

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> Technology is not an end in itself. What you
> do with it is. And you do it in local
> communities in native language.

Do computers at any reasonably high level, then
it is English. All experience at least since
the 50s shows this.

Look down in front of you - or behind you, were
I have my computer - what computer is it?
Look inside it: what OS does it have?
Look inside the OS - in what (human) language
is the code? And in what country did they
develop the programming language?

Or, if they did it in another country, e.g.,
Linux which is Finland and actually the entire
world - what language did they use to
coordinate and discuss efforts?

And we have seen examples of that in this very
thread: the lack of a Spanish manual, and the
absence of populated Spanish Emacs groups/lists
on either aioe or Gmane.

And Spanish isn't some "minor" language you can
neglect, even if you were fond of such
rankings, which I am not. Actually, a noble
hidalgo on board a galleon for the New World
has as much to gain from learning English as
has a Suede on a Viking ship.

Even this whole discussion involving people
from all over Europe, including Russia, and the
US as well. There is not a single language -
other than English - that we all know to even
have a rudimentary discussion of this kind.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Here is another idea. Make a good-looking PDF
or text file with two columns. One with the
Emacs original commands and with translations.
Print the document and nail it to a wall in the
office. If your people work at home, have
a small pile printed and hand it out whenever
you see them. Much faster and with none of the
negative aspects discussed.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Yuri Khan]

On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 2:05 AM, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:
> Here is another idea. Make a good-looking PDF
> or text file with two columns. One with the
> Emacs original commands and with translations.
> Print the document and nail it to a wall in the
> office.

In the bathroom. The number one learning surface is the wall or door
facing the toilet.

Re: Emacs user manual in Spanish

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

>> Here is another idea. Make a good-looking
>> PDF or text file with two columns. One with
>> the Emacs original commands and with
>> translations. Print the document and nail it
>> to a wall in the office.
>
> In the bathroom. The number one learning
> surface is the wall or door facing
> the toilet.

But what if some guy wants the translation but
some other guy has occupied the bathroom?

OK, both the office wall and the bathroom, then.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573