From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: lisa-asket@perso.be Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Quote by Knuth Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:44:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <87eebv6zid.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33952"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: moasenwood@zoho.eu, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 19 10:45:51 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OuN-0008V2-4A for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:45:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56550 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OuL-0004zi-3l for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:45:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55964) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OtX-0004xG-MR for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:45:00 -0400 Original-Received: from ip-16.mailobj.net ([213.182.54.16]:39818 helo=msg-6.mailo.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5OtU-0005B2-Jg for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:44:59 -0400 Original-Received: by www-7.mailo.com with http webmail; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:44:50 +0200 (CEST) X-EA-Auth: iOCnea7yD3XKq5+x+BREXc+nhM+dL+vWFQu048kDZEfWw8FtnOVxnx2JL/Qa7FTiMT1Y7hyMeQl36Ty0EJukb4e35+6Rbq+7 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: COMS/EA21.01/r20210601 In-Reply-To: <87eebv6zid.fsf@zoho.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=213.182.54.16; envelope-from=lisa-asket@perso.be; helo=msg-6.mailo.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131856 Archived-At: From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Re: Quote by Knuth Date: 19/07/2021 00:14:18 Europe/Paris Christopher Dimech wrote: >> Literate programming is an enhanced macro substitution >> package tuned to the task of rearranging source code. >We know what a macro is but what is literate programming >except it relies on macros? Does it rely to macros MORE than >everyday programming, including programming that uses macros, >or are the macros CLOSER to natural languages, maybe? Not about the reliance of macros.=C2=A0 But essentially it is about rearra= nging programs in a way that is more logical to human beings.=C2=A0 At the expen= se=20 of making it harder for those who want to change it. >If it has a name (literate programming) there should be >a snappy definition, otherwise I'll stick to illiterate >programming, thank you... That was my point, stick to illiterate programming. >> but in fact is quite different from other ways of >> structuring software systems. >Uhm, okay, what ways are those? Ways to condense complicated programs, particularly those using parallel or concurrent techniques.=C2=A0 The focus should be more on the analysis o= f algorithms rather than literate programming.=C2=A0 Literate programming evolved from = Knuth's experience with tex, ideas based on pretty display. >> Literacy in programming means different things in different >> circumstances. Many jobs are about getting a job done, >> rather than showing literacy, except in academia, mostly > written by young inexperienced idiots on low pay or no pay >>> at all. >What are you talking about? Nobody was ever interested in literate programming when on commission to d= o mathematical work.=C2=A0 People simply wanted an implementation for a spec= ific task, or to challenge competitors. With a special focus on keeping the word unde= r the=20 secrets act. >> A mathematician in industry can do as much literate >> programming as one wants but is not considered valuable >> work. When a company takes over another, they mostly trash >> the other system and use their own way. That's what happened >> to me a number of times. It was a criticism about literate programming in industry.=C2=A0 Many work= places are simply not interested in that.=C2=A0 But they are interested in making thi= ngs to go faster, or for algorithms to be improved.=C2=A0 From your previous discussions we = seem to agree. --=20 underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal