From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rusi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs Book Vs Emacs Manuals Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 07:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <554C9356.5000204@gmail.com> <20150508125314086261755@bob.proulx.com> <87bnhuc177.fsf@mbork.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1431266722 15911 80.91.229.3 (10 May 2015 14:05:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:05:22 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun May 10 16:05:22 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YrRr6-00081H-Lf for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 16:05:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33654 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrRr5-0000w9-V2 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 10:05:19 -0400 X-Received: by 10.42.106.197 with SMTP id a5mr12174483icp.30.1431266514166; Sun, 10 May 2015 07:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.64.148 with SMTP id o20mr111464igs.3.1431266514138; Sun, 10 May 2015 07:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!m20no1457510iga.0!news-out.google.com!n7ni29785igk.0!nntp.google.com!m20no1457501iga.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=59.94.119.77; posting-account=mBpa7woAAAAGLEWUUKpmbxm-Quu5D8ui Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.94.119.77 User-Agent: G2/1.0 Injection-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:01:54 +0000 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:212071 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:104355 Archived-At: On Sunday, May 10, 2015 at 8:18:20 AM UTC+5:30, Bob Proulx wrote: > Marcin Borkowski wrote: > > Bob Proulx wrote: > > > A student says that they really want to learn Calculus. They know > > > that Calculus is very powerful and can be used to solve many problems. > > > I suggest that they learn Arithmetic first. They respond, > > > "Arithmetic! Have you learned Arithmetic? Arithmetic is old. Should > > > I learn Arithmetic? For example, will Arithmetic talk about > > > Calculus?" > > > > Nice try;-). But this analogy is flawed: software, unlike mathematical > > theories, is subject to change. > > Has emacs changed that much? I don't think it has. It is still very > much the same. Sad but true After 20 years of using, teaching with, and making my students use emacs, for the first time this year I taught python using Idle rather than emacs. Some nuisances... C-a now means Select-all whereas my nerve-pathways know it as Beginning-of-line etc etc Also some sadness... however one needs to get real and selling emacs to students has led to lot of funny looks and some significant hostility. The tutorial with C-f C-b... for cursor movements was I guess the last straw What I describe may sound like exaggeration but that's only because I am trying to reconstruct what happens between noob and emacs when I am not around. Student starts reading tutorial and sees the C-f C-b stuff: - Some follow it wonder about the weirdness but then get on with it - Some just use cursor keys like the rest of the planet ignore the C-f C-b stuff and get on with it - But a few notice that cursor keys work as they should but is not documented and are a bit confused/bewildered - And of those few, a few get real HOSTILE Now if the cursor-keys didn't work it would not be so bad And ideal would be for them to work AND be documented But works and NOT documented/demoed in tutorial... and there are serious allegations of ATTITUDE! [And I am implicated with the emacs-devs :-) ]