Arrowless navigation

Arrowless navigation

[Vyacheslav Akhmechet]

I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?

Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
there. So how do the pros navigate?

Thanks,
 - Slava.

RE: Arrowless navigation

[Drew Adams]

    I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
    find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
    C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
    really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?

    Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
    to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
    close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
    there. So how do the pros navigate?

I can't speak for others, but I tend to use the arrow keys more now,
although in the old days I used C-f etc. exclusively. Many people evolve in
the other direction. I also use the mouse somewhat more now (direct access)
than I did before. Again, some others evolve to use the mouse less and the
keyboard more.

AFAIK, the keys were chosen mainly because they are mnemonic: f for forward,
b for backward, n for next, p for previous.

Another consideration is this: the equivalent word-navigation keys have the
same mnemonic: M-f and M-b for forward and backward. I use these more than I
use C-f and C-b, personally.

If you use touch-typing, as opposed to hunt-and-peck, these keys are in fact
pretty well placed. f, b, and n are all hit by an index finger (strong
finger); only p is hit by a weaker finger (pinky).

The obvious advantage of C-f etc. over, say, the arrow keys is that you need
not move your hands from the normal keyboard positions - you need never look
at the keyboard. I said that I use the arrow keys a bit more now, and that's
probably because I also use the mouse more: if my hand has already moved
from the normal keyboard position, it's no big deal to use the arrow keys.
Again, I don't claim to be typical in my use of keys.

Most of the oldest Emacs key bindings are mnemonic in some way or other,
which aids in learning. Others were chosen for ease of repeated access and
other reasons.  Of course, keys have different positions on different
keyboards, and one person's perfect choice is anothers nightmare. Thank
goodness Emacs keys are customizable!

Re: Arrowless navigation

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:17:44 -0400 Vyacheslav Akhmechet wrote:

> I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
> find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
> C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
> really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?
>
> Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
> to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
> close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
> there. So how do the pros navigate?

I use C-f and friends.  I'm so used to it...

But if you like to have some other cursor movement commands
w/o overwriting important emacs key bindings you can either
use these windows keys as a modifier or do some key mapping
magics with xmodmap.

A quite common setup is to use CapsLock as the control key and
the left control key as another modifier.

David

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Vyacheslav Akhmechet]

I just switched my CapsLock and control keys and I'm running into
problems. It's actually ok within emacs but I can't edit everything
there all the time and having to use CapsLock with c and v to
copy/paste in other pieces of software is a big pain. In general it
seems like default emacs bindings / conventions aren't very ergonomic.
Makes me consider trying VI :)

On 9/21/06, David Hansen <david.hansen@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:17:44 -0400 Vyacheslav Akhmechet wrote:
>
> > I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
> > find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
> > C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
> > really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?
> >
> > Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
> > to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
> > close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
> > there. So how do the pros navigate?
>
> I use C-f and friends.  I'm so used to it...
>
> But if you like to have some other cursor movement commands
> w/o overwriting important emacs key bindings you can either
> use these windows keys as a modifier or do some key mapping
> magics with xmodmap.
>
> A quite common setup is to use CapsLock as the control key and
> the left control key as another modifier.
>
> David
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> help-gnu-emacs mailing list
> help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs
>

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Xavier Maillard]

Hello,

  On Thursday, 21 September 2006, Vyacheslav Akhmechet wrote:
> I just switched my CapsLock and control keys and I'm running into
> problems. It's actually ok within emacs but I can't edit everything
> there all the time and having to use CapsLock with c and v to
> copy/paste in other pieces of software is a big pain. In general it
> seems like default emacs bindings / conventions aren't very ergonomic.
> Makes me consider trying VI :)

Your problem is what ? Configuration problem or just the fact that
your habits are changed ? :)

P.S: do not top post please.
-- 
Xavier

Arrowless navigation

[Vyacheslav Akhmechet]

> Your problem is what ? Configuration problem or just the fact that
> your habits are changed ? :)
Just the fact that using C-f and friends simply isn't comfortable
(unless you have really long fingers). When I use it my left pinky
ends up on the CapsLock. Reaching towards the F key with my left index
finger is ok. P and N are also ok (though they're a bit far away from
each other). However, reaching B is a problem. If I try with my left
index it's too far away from the caps so it's an uncomfortable
stretch. If I do it with the right hand I have to move my hands too
much. I suppose pressing it with the left thumb is ok, but it's also
pretty uncomfortable.

P.S. I apologize for sending this email to a personal account. I don't
use mailing lists too often.

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Tim X]

"Vyacheslav Akhmechet" <coffeemug@gmail.com> writes:

>> Your problem is what ? Configuration problem or just the fact that
>> your habits are changed ? :)
> Just the fact that using C-f and friends simply isn't comfortable
> (unless you have really long fingers). When I use it my left pinky
> ends up on the CapsLock. Reaching towards the F key with my left index
> finger is ok. P and N are also ok (though they're a bit far away from
> each other). However, reaching B is a problem. If I try with my left
> index it's too far away from the caps so it's an uncomfortable
> stretch. If I do it with the right hand I have to move my hands too
> much. I suppose pressing it with the left thumb is ok, but it's also
> pretty uncomfortable.
>
> P.S. I apologize for sending this email to a personal account. I don't
> use mailing lists too often.
>

Are you using a standard qwerty keyborad? Do you touch type? 

I ask as I use the standard bindings and don't tend to use the arrow
keys and don't suffer the problems you seem to experience. However, I
have been a touch typist for over 30 years. 

One thing I do is not try and press both the control and letter with
the same hand unless it is "comfortable". So, to hit C-b, I tend to
hit the right control key with my right pinky and b with my left index
finger rather than trying to hit both with the same hand. With C-n and
C-p, I use my left pinky for control and my right index (for n) or
right pinky (for p). Possibly I'm just use to it, but I don't find
this at all difficult. For the alt key, I tend to use my thumb (as I
do for the space) and will often do M-f M-b with just one hand as that
is close and easy.

If you don't touch type, I would strongly recommend learning - it only
takes a few hours and can really help speed things up. As I learnt on
a qwerty keyborad, I'm quite comfortable with it, but friends who use
devorak and other formats swear by them as being better from an
erganomic perspective.


HTH

Tim

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Xavier Maillard]

  On Thursday, 21 September 2006, David Hansen wrote:
> A quite common setup is to use CapsLock as the control key and
> the left control key as another modifier.

Definitely ! This is the best tip I ever read. First I was quite
pessimistic but now I am so used to it that whenever I use my
keyboard at work, I am totally lost (this is Microsoft and I do
not really know how to do such thing).

What is the tip with left control key exactly (which is useless
here -ie. I never use it) ?

Regards
-- 
Xavier

Re: Arrowless navigation

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:05:11 +0200 Xavier Maillard wrote:

> What is the tip with left control key exactly (which is useless
> here -ie. I never use it) ?

If you don't have a Hyper or Super Key on your Keyboard you
can use the left Control key instead.  Handy Key to control
you window manager.  Or make it another modifier (e.g. i use
my right Alt key for typing umlauts in non emacs frames).

Or the OP could use it for the cursor movement commands (i
actually did that once but used them only a few times,
reaching the left control key isn't much better than moving
the other hand away to the real cursor keys).

David

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Jochem Huhmann]

Xavier Maillard <zedek@gnu.org> writes:

> What is the tip with left control key exactly (which is useless
> here -ie. I never use it) ?

For me the Control key on the lower left corner of the keyboard is in
the perfect place. I don't need even a finger to press and hold it, I
just tilt down my hand to the left and press with my hand at the base
joint of my pinky. Leaves all ten fingers free for typing.


        Jochem

-- 
 "A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no 
 longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
 - Antoine de Saint-Exupery 

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Dieter Wilhelm]

Jochem Huhmann <joh@gmx.net> writes:

> Xavier Maillard <zedek@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> What is the tip with left control key exactly (which is useless
>> here -ie. I never use it) ?
>
> For me the Control key on the lower left corner of the keyboard is in
> the perfect place. I don't need even a finger to press and hold it, I
> just tilt down my hand to the left and press with my hand at the base
> joint of my pinky. Leaves all ten fingers free for typing.
>

Yes that's the way to go (for touch typists) it leaves your fingers in
the home position.  But I think it's more natural (and more symmetric
in the line of the shift key and capital letters) when you are also
using the right CTRL key.  For example C-f is done with the outside of
your right bale on the right CTRL key and of course with the left
index finger.  You can better reach e.g. C-6 (as prefix argument) and,
I think, it's more natural for these C-M-[adb] commands, pressing 3
keys with on hand at the same time is quite a feat.

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Arrowless navigation

[David Combs]

In article <mailman.7295.1159072918.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
Dieter Wilhelm  <dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> wrote:
>Jochem Huhmann <joh@gmx.net> writes:
>
>> Xavier Maillard <zedek@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> What is the tip with left control key exactly (which is useless
>>> here -ie. I never use it) ?
>>
>> For me the Control key on the lower left corner of the keyboard is in
>> the perfect place. I don't need even a finger to press and hold it, I
>> just tilt down my hand to the left and press with my hand at the base
>> joint of my pinky. Leaves all ten fingers free for typing.
>>
>
>Yes that's the way to go (for touch typists) it leaves your fingers in
>the home position.  But I think it's more natural (and more symmetric
>in the line of the shift key and capital letters) when you are also
>using the right CTRL key.  For example C-f is done with the outside of
>your right bale on the right CTRL key and of course with the left

            ^^^^ -- "bale" -- what's that?  (Not in my dictionary,
                                other than like "a bale of hay").


>index finger.  You can better reach e.g. C-6 (as prefix argument) and,
>I think, it's more natural for these C-M-[adb] commands, pressing 3
>keys with on hand at the same time is quite a feat.
>
>-- 
>    Best wishes
>
>    H. Dieter Wilhelm
>    Darmstadt, Germany
>
>

Thanks!

David

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Dieter Wilhelm]

dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes:

> In article <mailman.7295.1159072918.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
> Dieter Wilhelm  <dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> wrote:
>>Jochem Huhmann <joh@gmx.net> writes:
>>
>>> Xavier Maillard <zedek@gnu.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> What is the tip with left control key exactly (which is useless
>>>> here -ie. I never use it) ?
>>>
>>> For me the Control key on the lower left corner of the keyboard is in
>>> the perfect place. I don't need even a finger to press and hold it, I
>>> just tilt down my hand to the left and press with my hand at the base
>>> joint of my pinky. Leaves all ten fingers free for typing.
>>>
>>
>>Yes that's the way to go (for touch typists) it leaves your fingers in
>>the home position.  But I think it's more natural (and more symmetric
>>in the line of the shift key and capital letters) when you are also
>>using the right CTRL key.  For example C-f is done with the outside of
>>your right bale on the right CTRL key and of course with the left
>
>             ^^^^ -- "bale" -- what's that?  (Not in my dictionary,
>                                 other than like "a bale of hay").
>

I'm very sorry, this was a confusion of the German translation of bale
-- (Heu)-Ballen but I meant (Hand)-Ballen which can be abbreviated to
the same word.  

What I meant to use is the portion of the palm (at the side, beneath
the little finger).  I looked it up in Wikipedia and I found
hypothenar as the proper word for the group of muscles there.

Thanks for pointing me to this mistake (it's a risk learning a
language by dictionaries).

Might be helpful for my German compatriots:
Handfläche -- palm
Handballen -- the ball of the hand
Kleinfingerballen -- hypothenar
Daumenballen -- thenar

-- 
    Best wishes

    H. Dieter Wilhelm
    Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Giles Chamberlin]

Xavier Maillard <zedek@gnu.org> writes:

> Definitely ! This is the best tip I ever read. First I was quite
> pessimistic but now I am so used to it that whenever I use my
> keyboard at work, I am totally lost (this is Microsoft and I do
> not really know how to do such thing).

For Windows 2000/XP try http://webpages.charter.net/krumsick/
to remap the keyboard.

-- 
Giles

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Xavier Maillard]

  On Friday, 22 September 2006, Giles Chamberlin wrote:
> Xavier Maillard <zedek@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Definitely ! This is the best tip I ever read. First I was quite
> > pessimistic but now I am so used to it that whenever I use my
> > keyboard at work, I am totally lost (this is Microsoft and I do
> > not really know how to do such thing).
> 
> For Windows 2000/XP try http://webpages.charter.net/krumsick/
> to remap the keyboard.

Really cool. I will have a look at it.

Regards
-- 
Xavier

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Xavier Maillard]

  On Thursday, 21 September 2006, Vyacheslav Akhmechet wrote:

> Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
> to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
> close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
> there. So how do the pros navigate?

I also like to use C-f and friends and find quicker to use than
arrows.

Habits are hard to change :)
-- 
Xavier

Re: Arrowless navigation

[David Combs]

In article <mailman.7237.1158859969.9609.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
David Hansen  <david.hansen@gmx.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:17:44 -0400 Vyacheslav Akhmechet wrote:
>
>> I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
>> find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
>> C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
>> really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?
>>
>> Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
>> to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
>> close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
>> there. So how do the pros navigate?
>
>I use C-f and friends.  I'm so used to it...
>
>But if you like to have some other cursor movement commands
>w/o overwriting important emacs key bindings you can either
>use these windows keys as a modifier or do some key mapping
>magics with xmodmap.
>
>A quite common setup is to use CapsLock as the control key and
>the left control key as another modifier.
>
>David
>
>
>

Even better is that the standard sun keyboard has
control and caps-lock, etc, in the "right" place
(ie where they were on the ASR-33 teletype, which
is what EVERYONE used until finally (way back when!)
"glass ttys" became available (at reasonable price).

(is also how ancient VT-100, etc, had keys laid out).

Meaning, with control-key just to left of "A".

(Way down at the bottom left, as on (GD!) pc-keyboards,
it's a PAINFUL stretch (for me, anyway).

David

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Florian Kaufmann]

I am also an intermediate XEmacs user, and I wondered myself what
others do. Currently I have ctrl on caps lock and moving forward
backward I have on C-j and C-l. Also all the other equivalents that are
on f and b in the default configuration. I also think b is too far away
from the home position for such an often used key. However, I face now
the problem that I have to change the bindings for some other modes. I
already posted this problem earlier, and the outcome was that I have to
live with it. 

Flo

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Tim X]

"Vyacheslav Akhmechet" <coffeemug@gmail.com> writes:

> I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
> find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
> C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
> really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?
>
> Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
> to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
> close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
> there. So how do the pros navigate?
>

You could try one of the other modes, such as CUA-mode to get CUA key
bindings. I think there are other modes as well, such as Wordstar
mode, and various other editor emulation modes.

HTH

Tim

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: Arrowless navigation

[don provan]

"Vyacheslav Akhmechet" <coffeemug@gmail.com> writes:

> I recently disabled the arrow keys to avoid temptation. However, I
> find that default navigation is fairly uncomfortable: C-f, C-b, C-n,
> C-p. The keys are far away from each other and navigating like that is
> really stressful on the fingers. Why is this done this way?

The keys are chosen to be mnemonic.

> Do most people redefine these bindings? Initially I wanted to redefine
> to C-j, C-k, C-l and C-i (because they resemble the arrow keys and are
> close to the home row) but some of the most common emacs bindings are
> there. So how do the pros navigate?

Well, I modestly consider myself a pro. I use the original bindings,
and I suspect most people do. The main exceptions are those people
hooked on the arrow keys, but most pro's prefer to keep their hands at
the home position rather than shift back and forth to the keypad.

As a learner, I think you're focused on the movement commands so much
that you are forgetting that they are only four of hundreds of
commands that are bound to various key sequences on multiple layers
under your finger tips. As you learn the other key sequences, you'll
find that the mnemonic help in remembering the less used commands and
the vertical relation between control and meta is much more important
than any initial desire to cluster the four movement keys in some
central location. As you get used to it, you won't think any more of
their distribution than you think about the distribution of the
characters is "distribution" as you type it. And the control key may
seem a little awkward at first, but, with practice, it turns out to be
no more troublesome to use than the shift key to get capital letters.
You just add the movement commands (and all the other commands) to
your typing skills in the same way you learn to type words and
punctuation marks.

Just for the record, I always use my left pinky for control and my
left thumb for Meta (actually Alt on the PC keyboards I use
exclusively), although the odd thing about it is that it's so
automatic, I don't notice this anymore: I probably wouldn't have
realized I used my thumb for Meta if some other poster hadn't
mentioned it.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I encourage you to try and learn the
original bindings. By the time you're comfortable with enough commands
to be using the entire keyboard, I suspect you'll have forgotten what
you thought the problem was with ^f, ^b, ^n, and ^p. On the other
hand, if you start rebinding the basic movement commands, you'll most
likely spend the rest of your life rebinding all the other commands,
too.

-don provan

Re: Arrowless navigation

[Kevin Rodgers]

don provan wrote:
> As a learner, I think you're focused on the movement commands so much
> that you are forgetting that they are only four of hundreds of
> commands that are bound to various key sequences on multiple layers
> under your finger tips. As you learn the other key sequences, you'll
> find that the mnemonic help in remembering the less used commands and
> the vertical relation between control and meta is much more important
> than any initial desire to cluster the four movement keys in some
> central location.

Those are excellent points.  In fact, the 4 basic movement commands
usually become less used as one learns that there are more efficient
ways to navigate, and even more efficient ways to edit that require less
navigation.

-- 
Kevin

Re: Arrowless navigation

[David Golden]

Well,  C-s/C-r can be pretty fast, i.e 
pick a word/part of a word and search to it...