remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

I've been doing some work on remote machines on the other U.S. coast
recently, and have noticed strange and horrible delays associated with
running GNU emacs in an X window. At first I thought the problem was the
speed of traffic associated with X11, but I don't think so any more. The
reason I say these delays are strange is that they seem to be worst when
emacs is loading libraries (especially during startup), or just when it's
trying to respond to "C-x C-f" the first time. On some machines, it takes
literally minutes to give me the "find file:" prompt. I don't see the same
problems when running "emacs -nw" in an xterm (that just blasts along like
crazy), so it can't be having trouble loading the libraries. I don't see
anything this bad when running Xemacs, so I doubt there's a real problem
with the X11 GUI stuff. Can't imagine what the problem is. Any ideas?

TIA,
Dave Abrahams

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Kai Großjohann]

Maybe you can make things faster by turning off the blinking cursor,
and the toolbar.  I see slowness when displaying images (X-Face in
Gnus) or CJK characters for the first time.

<plug> Another alternative, of course, is to run Emacs locally and use Tramp
to access the remote files... </plug>

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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"Kai Großjohann" <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> wrote in message
news:vafn0q0o8bu.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de...
> Maybe you can make things faster by turning off the blinking cursor,
> and the toolbar.  I see slowness when displaying images (X-Face in
> Gnus) or CJK characters for the first time.

My cursor already doesn't blink. Turning off the toolbar makes no
difference. I'm tellin' ya, this has nothing to do with graphics!
I start emacs and I see in the status line:

loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
... etc

This goes on for quite some time.

When I do "emacs -nw" I never have this problem. "emacs -q" makes no
difference whatsoever, so the culprit is not my .emacs file.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Edward O'Connor]

>>>>> "David" == David Abrahams <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

 David> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
 David> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
 David> ... etc

 David> This goes on for quite some time.

Maybe adding (wait-for-wm . nil) to `default-frame-alist' and
`initial-frame-alist' helps?


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
ted@oconnor.cx

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Edward O'Connor" <ted@oconnor.cx> wrote in message
news:uu1k8iepk.fsf@oconnor.cx...
> >>>>> "David" == David Abrahams <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
>
>  David> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
>  David> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
>  David> ... etc
>
>  David> This goes on for quite some time.
>
> Maybe adding (wait-for-wm . nil) to `default-frame-alist' and
> `initial-frame-alist' helps?

Makes absolutely no perceivable difference.

Any more ideas?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Kastrup]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> "Edward O'Connor" <ted@oconnor.cx> wrote in message
> news:uu1k8iepk.fsf@oconnor.cx...
> > >>>>> "David" == David Abrahams <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
> >
> >  David> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
> >  David> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
> >  David> ... etc
> >
> >  David> This goes on for quite some time.
> >
> > Maybe adding (wait-for-wm . nil) to `default-frame-alist' and
> > `initial-frame-alist' helps?
> 
> Makes absolutely no perceivable difference.
> 
> Any more ideas?

Perhaps fonts?  Does (global-font-lock-mode 0) make a difference
(except switching off colors)?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David.Kastrup@t-online.de

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"David Kastrup" <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:x5heg7c04u.fsf@tupik.goethe.zz...

> "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
>
> > "Edward O'Connor" <ted@oconnor.cx> wrote in message
> > news:uu1k8iepk.fsf@oconnor.cx...
> > > >>>>> "David" == David Abrahams <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
> > >
> > >  David> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
> > >  David> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
> > >  David> ... etc
> > >
> > >  David> This goes on for quite some time.
> > >
> > > Maybe adding (wait-for-wm . nil) to `default-frame-alist' and
> > > `initial-frame-alist' helps?
> >
> > Makes absolutely no perceivable difference.
> >
> > Any more ideas?
>
> Perhaps fonts?  Does (global-font-lock-mode 0) make a difference
> (except switching off colors)?

I'm sure it doesn't. Why would it? It's not being slow in updating the
screen, it's being slow in *loading* *libraries*!


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Kastrup]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> "David Kastrup" <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:x5heg7c04u.fsf@tupik.goethe.zz...
> 
> > "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
> >
> > > "Edward O'Connor" <ted@oconnor.cx> wrote in message
> > > news:uu1k8iepk.fsf@oconnor.cx...
> > > > >>>>> "David" == David Abrahams <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
> > > >
> > > >  David> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
> > > >  David> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
> > > >  David> ... etc
> > > >
> > > >  David> This goes on for quite some time.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe adding (wait-for-wm . nil) to `default-frame-alist' and
> > > > `initial-frame-alist' helps?
> > >
> > > Makes absolutely no perceivable difference.
> > >
> > > Any more ideas?
> >
> > Perhaps fonts?  Does (global-font-lock-mode 0) make a difference
> > (except switching off colors)?
> 
> I'm sure it doesn't.

If you know what the problem is, why do you ask?

> Why would it? It's not being slow in updating the screen, it's being
> slow in *loading* *libraries*!

If it reported the loading progress with different fonts...

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David.Kastrup@t-online.de

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"David Kastrup" <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:x58z1j8wym.fsf@tupik.goethe.zz...

> > I'm sure it doesn't.
>
> If you know what the problem is, why do you ask?

I don't know what the problem is, but I have a strong suspicion what it
isn't... and tests confirm that turning font-lock off makes no difference. I
appreciate the suggestions, but everybody's looking under the streetlamp for
my keys because that's where the light is, despite the fact that I lost them
half a block away. Can anybody think of an explanation which doesn't have to
do with the speed of graphics? The bottleneck appears to be some kind of
network handshake between my machine and the remote one.

> > Why would it? It's not being slow in updating the screen, it's being
> > slow in *loading* *libraries*!
>
> If it reported the loading progress with different fonts...

It's not doing that. Is that even possible without extensive doctoring of
built-in functionality?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Thomas F. Burdick]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> "David Kastrup" <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:x58z1j8wym.fsf@tupik.goethe.zz...
> 
> > > I'm sure it doesn't.
> >
> > If you know what the problem is, why do you ask?
> 
> I don't know what the problem is, but I have a strong suspicion what it
> isn't... and tests confirm that turning font-lock off makes no difference. I
> appreciate the suggestions, but everybody's looking under the streetlamp for
> my keys because that's where the light is, despite the fact that I lost them
> half a block away. Can anybody think of an explanation which doesn't have to
> do with the speed of graphics? The bottleneck appears to be some kind of
> network handshake between my machine and the remote one.

You didn't say explicitly (I don't think), but you impleid that you're
using Emacs 21.  21 is *much* *much* slower over a forwarded X11
connection than 20.7 was.  I'm not sure what's in all the network
traffic, but it generates a lot.  If I'm working over an ssh/X11 link,
I never use 21.

The other problem you could be having is dropped packets.  ssh/X11
connections in general seem to be really sensitive to dropped packets,
and too many of them will cause the connection to just hang for a
while.  Combined with Emacs 21's chattiness, this can be really
unpleasant.

Finally, if the remote server is Linux 2.4, I'm sorry.  I've noticed
that its scheduler isn't very nice to interactive applications over an
ssh/X11 connection.  It seems to want to give them fewer timeslices of
a longer duration than you'd want.  I have had a much better time with
Solaris, or Linux 2.2.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Thomas F. Burdick" <tfb@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:xcvk7l347l8.fsf@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU...
> "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
>
> You didn't say explicitly (I don't think), but you impleid that you're
> using Emacs 21.  21 is *much* *much* slower over a forwarded X11
> connection than 20.7 was.

Yes, I noticed that. I am using 21.x

> I'm not sure what's in all the network
> traffic, but it generates a lot.  If I'm working over an ssh/X11 link,
> I never use 21.

Somebody must know what it's doing with all those packets (and how to turn
them off)! Anyone? Bueller?

> The other problem you could be having is dropped packets.  ssh/X11
> connections in general seem to be really sensitive to dropped packets,
> and too many of them will cause the connection to just hang for a
> while.  Combined with Emacs 21's chattiness, this can be really
> unpleasant.
>
> Finally, if the remote server is Linux 2.4, I'm sorry.

Linux, AIX, OSF, it doesn't seem to matter. In fact, the Linux machines I've
used tend to be the snappiest of the lot.

> I've noticed
> that its scheduler isn't very nice to interactive applications over an
> ssh/X11 connection.  It seems to want to give them fewer timeslices of
> a longer duration than you'd want.  I have had a much better time with
> Solaris, or Linux 2.2.
>
> --
>            /|_     .-----------------------.
>          ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |
>      ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |
>     /       /      `-----------------------'
>    (   -.  |
>    |     ) |
>   (`-.  '--.)
>    `. )----'

Hmm, a talking cat. Isn't that a sign of the Apocalypse?



--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Tim Cross]

tfb@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:

> You didn't say explicitly (I don't think), but you impleid that you're
> using Emacs 21.  21 is *much* *much* slower over a forwarded X11
> connection than 20.7 was.  I'm not sure what's in all the network
> traffic, but it generates a lot.  If I'm working over an ssh/X11 link,
> I never use 21.
> 
> The other problem you could be having is dropped packets.  ssh/X11
> connections in general seem to be really sensitive to dropped packets,
> and too many of them will cause the connection to just hang for a
> while.  Combined with Emacs 21's chattiness, this can be really
> unpleasant.
> 
> Finally, if the remote server is Linux 2.4, I'm sorry.  I've noticed
> that its scheduler isn't very nice to interactive applications over an
> ssh/X11 connection.  It seems to want to give them fewer timeslices of
> a longer duration than you'd want.  I have had a much better time with
> Solaris, or Linux 2.2.

While this may not solve the problem, it might improve performance if
you also use something like dxcp to get some additional compression of
X protocol packets. also, since you are doing X over an ssh
connection, try playing with the ssh compression levels. Also try
executing other X applications and see if they have the same
slowness. I would also turn off any "features" which you don't
need/use like the toolbar. Also, make sure the fonts you are using are
available on both machines - sometimes you can get really slow
performance if the remote font specified for emacs is not available
locally or is available, but mapping takes additional time
etc. Although it might sound crazy, it may also be worth doing some
traceroutes to check where the packets are going to get to your
system.

Good luck
T

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Tim Cross" <tcross@nospam.une.edu.au> wrote in message
news:87adlyaa39.fsf@blind-bat.une.edu.au...
> tfb@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:

> While this may not solve the problem, it might improve performance if
> you also use something like dxcp to get some additional compression of
> X protocol packets. also, since you are doing X over an ssh
> connection, try playing with the ssh compression levels. Also try
> executing other X applications and see if they have the same
> slowness. I would also turn off any "features" which you don't
> need/use like the toolbar. Also, make sure the fonts you are using are
> available on both machines - sometimes you can get really slow
> performance if the remote font specified for emacs is not available
> locally or is available, but mapping takes additional time
> etc. Although it might sound crazy, it may also be worth doing some
> traceroutes to check where the packets are going to get to your
> system.

Hi Tim,

While I appreciate that you've taken the time to make these suggestions, you
clearly haven't read the foregoing thread, or you'd know that none of these
things make any perceivable difference.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Kastrup]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> While I appreciate that you've taken the time to make these
> suggestions, you clearly haven't read the foregoing thread, or you'd
> know that none of these things make any perceivable difference.

Ok, since you say that it is whenever loading files: Hit C-x C-e after
the following line a few times.  Is there a large delay consistently
at some point?  Does it take longer than maybe a second? In that case,
there may be a directory that is causing Emacs grief, by containing
lots of contents, by being NFS-mounted and problematic, by pointing to
something automounted but not available... things like that.

(dolist (elt load-path) (message "%s" elt)(directory-files elt))

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David.Kastrup@t-online.de

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"David Kastrup" <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:x53crq1jct.fsf@tupik.goethe.zz...

> Ok, since you say that it is whenever loading files: Hit C-x C-e after
> the following line a few times.  Is there a large delay consistently
> at some point?  Does it take longer than maybe a second? In that case,
> there may be a directory that is causing Emacs grief, by containing
> lots of contents, by being NFS-mounted and problematic, by pointing to
> something automounted but not available... things like that.
>
> (dolist (elt load-path) (message "%s" elt)(directory-files elt))

This doesn't happen when I'm doing "emacs -nw", so that can't be it.
It also does happen when I'm doing "emacs -q", so it's nothing I'm adding to
the load-path in my .emacs.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Matthew Kennedy]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> While I appreciate that you've taken the time to make these suggestions, you
> clearly haven't read the foregoing thread, or you'd know that none of these
> things make any perceivable difference.

How about running strace on your emacs. It might give a clue where the
slowdown is occurring.

-- 
Matthew Kennedy

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Heinz Rommerskirchen]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> >  David> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
> >  David> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
> >  David> ... etc
> >
> >  David> This goes on for quite some time.
> >
> > Maybe adding (wait-for-wm . nil) to `default-frame-alist' and
> > `initial-frame-alist' helps?
> 
> Makes absolutely no perceivable difference.
> 
> Any more ideas?

Does it try to load the libraries from the remote host? What is in your
loadpath?

-- 
Regards

Heinz

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Kai Großjohann]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> My cursor already doesn't blink. Turning off the toolbar makes no
> difference. I'm tellin' ya, this has nothing to do with graphics!
> I start emacs and I see in the status line:
>
> loading image...done    [/after/ 'done' I wait 10 seconds]
> loading tooltip...done  [wait again]
> ... etc
>
> This goes on for quite some time.

How about you use tcpdump or the like to actually look at the network
traffic?  That might quickly tell you what's happening.

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

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"Kai Großjohann" <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> wrote in message
news:vafu1k7wnzy.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de...
> "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
>
>
> How about you use tcpdump or the like to actually look at the network
> traffic?  That might quickly tell you what's happening.

Only that:

1. Don't know where to get tcpdump for my local machine (it's a cygwin host)
2. Wouldn't know how to use it if I could find it
3. Wouldn't know how to interpret the results

Still, this seems like a plausible avenue to pursue.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Krishnakumar B]

On Monday, 30 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> "Kai Großjohann" <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> wrote in message
> news:vafu1k7wnzy.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de...
> > "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
> >
> >
> > How about you use tcpdump or the like to actually look at the network
> > traffic?  That might quickly tell you what's happening.
> 
> Only that:
> 
> 1. Don't know where to get tcpdump for my local machine (it's a cygwin
>    host)

Lovely..you say this at last. I have also had slowdowns with running Emacs
21 when X is enabled. This happens when I try connecting to the remote
machine using rxvt (shipped with Cygwin). Try switching your SSH client
(for example use PUTTY's terminal window).

I don't know what is causing the slowdowns in the case when I login using

plink -ssh <hostname> and then start Emacs as to using a separate terminal
window. Maybe something to do with tty initialization. FWIW, I tried using
the Windows command shell and it works like a charm.

> 2. Wouldn't know how to use it if I could find it
> 3. Wouldn't know how to interpret the results

tcpdump is too much for this unless you want to get to the root of the
problem.

-kitty.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Krishnakumar B" <kitty@cs.wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:dmln0pzjg19.fsf@samba.doc.wustl.edu...
> >
> > Only that:
> >
> > 1. Don't know where to get tcpdump for my local machine (it's a cygwin
> >    host)
>
> Lovely..you say this at last.

No need to get nasty. It's hard to know what information people will find
relevant.

> I have also had slowdowns with running Emacs
> 21 when X is enabled. This happens when I try connecting to the remote
> machine using rxvt (shipped with Cygwin).

I'm not using rxvt, to my knowledge.

> Try switching your SSH client
> (for example use PUTTY's terminal window).

Do you really think that's the culprit, considering that I have no problems
with "emacs -nw" run in an xterm window?
I also have no problems running emacs over ssh outside X11, in a regular
cygwin window.

> I don't know what is causing the slowdowns in the case when I login using
> plink -ssh <hostname>

plink?

> and then start Emacs as to using a separate terminal
> window. Maybe something to do with tty initialization. FWIW, I tried using
> the Windows command shell and it works like a charm.

The windows command shell always works, but usually not like a charm. What
were you using it for?

> > 2. Wouldn't know how to use it if I could find it
> > 3. Wouldn't know how to interpret the results
>
> tcpdump is too much for this unless you want to get to the root of the
> problem.

I wouldn't mind, if it resulted in a useful bug report to the GNU emacs
developers.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Krishnakumar B]

On Monday, 30 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> 
> No need to get nasty. It's hard to know what information people will find
> relevant.

Sorry if I sounded rude. Running an X application on a non-native X server
like Exceed always has problems related to fonts.

> > I have also had slowdowns with running Emacs 21 when X is enabled. This
> > happens when I try connecting to the remote machine using rxvt (shipped
> > with Cygwin).
> 
> I'm not using rxvt, to my knowledge.

What terminal are you using ?

> > Try switching your SSH client (for example use PUTTY's terminal
> > window).
> 
> Do you really think that's the culprit, considering that I have no
> problems with "emacs -nw" run in an xterm window?

Since I have exact symptoms that you posted and it works for me when I do
this, I suggested this. It's up to you.

> I also have no problems running emacs over ssh outside X11, in a regular
> cygwin window.

What does "outside" mean ?

> > I don't know what is causing the slowdowns in the case when I login
> > using plink -ssh <hostname>
> 
> plink?

It's the command-line utility that ships with Putty.

> > and then start Emacs as to using a separate terminal window. Maybe
> > something to do with tty initialization. FWIW, I tried using the
> > Windows command shell and it works like a charm.
> 
> The windows command shell always works, but usually not like a charm. What
> were you using it for?

To login to a remote machine and start Emacs on the remote machine and have
it display using an X server running on the local windows machine.

> > > 2. Wouldn't know how to use it if I could find it
> > > 3. Wouldn't know how to interpret the results
> >
> > tcpdump is too much for this unless you want to get to the root of the
> > problem.
> 
> I wouldn't mind, if it resulted in a useful bug report to the GNU emacs
> developers.

Again it's up to you. If you have the time, I am sure that the GNU Emacs
developers will appreciate the extra information.

-kitty.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Krishnakumar B" <kitty@cs.wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:dmlit0njctk.fsf@samba.doc.wustl.edu...
> On Monday, 30 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> >
> > No need to get nasty. It's hard to know what information people will
find
> > relevant.
>
> Sorry if I sounded rude. Running an X application on a non-native X server

What does "non-native" mean in this context? It certainly is native x86 code
running on an x86 machine.

> like Exceed always has problems related to fonts.

It's not Exceed, FWIW; it's Cygwin XFree86: http://cygwin.com/xfree/

> > > I have also had slowdowns with running Emacs 21 when X is enabled.
This
> > > happens when I try connecting to the remote machine using rxvt
(shipped
> > > with Cygwin).
> >
> > I'm not using rxvt, to my knowledge.
>
> What terminal are you using ?

I'm using xterm to launch emacs, but I'm confused by your question because I
can't see how it's relevant. The slowdowns only occur when emacs isn't
running in a terminal window.

> > > Try switching your SSH client (for example use PUTTY's terminal
> > > window).
> >
> > Do you really think that's the culprit, considering that I have no
> > problems with "emacs -nw" run in an xterm window?
>
> Since I have exact symptoms that you posted and it works for me when I do
> this, I suggested this. It's up to you.

Okay. I'm not sure what it means to "switch the SSH client". I have two ways
of starting ssh:

1. From within a dos box running cygwin. It doesn't know about my DISPLAY
and thus I don't bother with -X

2. From within an xterm window I launch on my local machine from within TWM
under cygwin/XFree86

> > I also have no problems running emacs over ssh outside X11, in a regular
> > cygwin window.
>
> What does "outside" mean ?

Outside means I pick the "Cygwin Bash Shell" from my start menu and get a
"dos box" running bash, with no X server running. When I launch emacs it's
running in a character-based mode.

> > > I don't know what is causing the slowdowns in the case when I login
> > > using plink -ssh <hostname>
> >
> > plink?
>
> It's the command-line utility that ships with Putty.

If you have slowdowns with plink, why do you think I'll see an improvement
by switching to its terminal window?

> > The windows command shell always works, but usually not like a charm.
What
> > were you using it for?
>
> To login to a remote machine and start Emacs on the remote machine and
have
> it display using an X server running on the local windows machine.

Uhhhm. Coming up with the correct DISPLAY variable setting for the remote
machine is difficult, isn't it?
Well, OK, I tried it. And it made... no perceivable difference :(

> > > > 2. Wouldn't know how to use it if I could find it
> > > > 3. Wouldn't know how to interpret the results
> > >
> > > tcpdump is too much for this unless you want to get to the root of the
> > > problem.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind, if it resulted in a useful bug report to the GNU emacs
> > developers.
>
> Again it's up to you. If you have the time, I am sure that the GNU Emacs
> developers will appreciate the extra information.

Do you know where I can find a Cygwin version of this tool (or the
equivalent)?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Christopher Browne]

Oops! "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> I'm using xterm to launch emacs, but I'm confused by your question
> because I can't see how it's relevant. The slowdowns only occur when
> emacs isn't running in a terminal window.

There always was a "traditional 17 second pause" whilst Netscape
Navigator loaded when it ran an X request to do a (pointless and
spurious) list of every font available on the X server.

Perhaps there's something in the Emacs startup that is doing something
similar to this, requesting all fonts or some such thing, that would
lead to a big pause at start time.

I'm not sure that's the answer, but it is the sort of thing that would
be:
 a) Not totally obvious, and
 b) In keeping with the symptoms...
-- 
(concatenate 'string "aa454" "@freenet.carleton.ca")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/linux.html
The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Christopher Browne" <cbbrowne@acm.org> wrote in message
news:anaqu3$arjl0$1@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de...
> Oops! "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> was seen spray-painting on
a wall:
> > I'm using xterm to launch emacs, but I'm confused by your question
> > because I can't see how it's relevant. The slowdowns only occur when
> > emacs isn't running in a terminal window.
>
> There always was a "traditional 17 second pause" whilst Netscape
> Navigator loaded when it ran an X request to do a (pointless and
> spurious) list of every font available on the X server.
>
> Perhaps there's something in the Emacs startup that is doing something
> similar to this, requesting all fonts or some such thing, that would
> lead to a big pause at start time.
>
> I'm not sure that's the answer, but it is the sort of thing that would
> be:
>  a) Not totally obvious, and
>  b) In keeping with the symptoms...

Yeah, but wouldn't you think it'd be content to ask for this list just once?
17 seconds seems like heaven to me. It seems like it goes through this delay
each time a file type is loaded which causes an as-yet-unused editing mode
to be started.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Krishnakumar B]

On Monday, 30 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> 
> What does "non-native" mean in this context? It certainly is native x86 code
> running on an x86 machine.

I meant the X-server implementation which is the case with any Windows box.

> > like Exceed always has problems related to fonts.
> 
> It's not Exceed, FWIW; it's Cygwin XFree86: http://cygwin.com/xfree/

OK.

> > What terminal are you using ?
> 
> I'm using xterm to launch emacs, but I'm confused by your question because I
> can't see how it's relevant. The slowdowns only occur when emacs isn't
> running in a terminal window.

I will tell you how it hit me. When I run rxvt (comes with Cygwin) and do
this:

local> plink -ssh remote
remote> emacs

I get the same exact slowdowns which you report. But when I open the
terminal application that comes with Putty, and do the same thing, emacs
comes up normally (i.e snappily as if it were running on a local machine).
I don't mess with DISPLAY cruft (anymore) as SSH takes care of doing the
forwarding and setting the DISPLAY correctly.

> Okay. I'm not sure what it means to "switch the SSH client". I have two ways
> of starting ssh:
> 
> 1. From within a dos box running cygwin. It doesn't know about my DISPLAY
> and thus I don't bother with -X

I assume "-X" means ssh -X which requests forwarding of X display ? You
don't need to mess with DISPLAY if your SSH is setup correctly.

> 2. From within an xterm window I launch on my local machine from within TWM
> under cygwin/XFree86

I have never tried that. I would probably be happy with a rootless X server
on Windows as I have no intention of running TWM or such under Windows.
Does rootless X  work under Cygwin XFree86 ? 

> > What does "outside" mean ?
> 
> Outside means I pick the "Cygwin Bash Shell" from my start menu and get a
> "dos box" running bash, with no X server running. When I launch emacs it's
> running in a character-based mode.

OK.

> > It's the command-line utility that ships with Putty.
> 
> If you have slowdowns with plink, why do you think I'll see an improvement
> by switching to its terminal window?

I have no idea. But it works for me. I haven't spent time on figuring out
why. My guess was that with the terminal window I have specified a lot more
setting related to the terminal type and compression, SSH algorithm etc,
remote forwarding etc which might make a difference in the speed. And none
of which I could specify using just plink.

> Uhhhm. Coming up with the correct DISPLAY variable setting for the remote
> machine is difficult, isn't it?

Nope, it is not difficult. See above. Frankly I just don't bother with
DISPLAY anymore. You just need a X server running on your windows box
either Cygwin or Exceed. If you run Cygwin, I think starting an Emacs from
a dos terminal with X forwarding set up should open up the Emacs window
in your XFree86 window.

> Well, OK, I tried it. And it made... no perceivable difference :(
> 
> > Again it's up to you. If you have the time, I am sure that the GNU Emacs
> > developers will appreciate the extra information.
> 
> Do you know where I can find a Cygwin version of this tool (or the
> equivalent)?

Try getting the source and compiling it under Cygwin. I think there is a
version that comes with Windows too. Try this link:

http://windump.polito.it/

I haven't tried it. But unless you are a X guru (I am not), I don't think
the output will make much sense except maybe give you a cue the ports
attracting traffic which in the case is obvious.

-kitty.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Krishnakumar B" <kitty@cs.wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:dmlelbaki3d.fsf@samba.doc.wustl.edu...

> > > What terminal are you using ?
> >
> > I'm using xterm to launch emacs, but I'm confused by your question
because I
> > can't see how it's relevant. The slowdowns only occur when emacs isn't
> > running in a terminal window.
>
> I will tell you how it hit me. When I run rxvt (comes with Cygwin) and do
> this:
>
> local> plink -ssh remote
> remote> emacs
>
> I get the same exact slowdowns which you report. But when I open the
> terminal application that comes with Putty, and do the same thing, emacs
> comes up normally (i.e snappily as if it were running on a local machine).
> I don't mess with DISPLAY cruft (anymore) as SSH takes care of doing the
> forwarding and setting the DISPLAY correctly.

That only works for me if I start ssh from within an xterm window.

> > Okay. I'm not sure what it means to "switch the SSH client". I have two
ways
> > of starting ssh:
> >
> > 1. From within a dos box running cygwin. It doesn't know about my
DISPLAY
> > and thus I don't bother with -X
>
> I assume "-X" means ssh -X which requests forwarding of X display ?

Yes.

> You don't need to mess with DISPLAY if your SSH is setup correctly.

I don't know what else I should set up. A clue, please?

> > 2. From within an xterm window I launch on my local machine from within
TWM
> > under cygwin/XFree86
>
> I have never tried that. I would probably be happy with a rootless X
server
> on Windows as I have no intention of running TWM or such under Windows.
> Does rootless X  work under Cygwin XFree86 ?

I think this answers that question:
http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2002-09/msg00309.html

> > > It's the command-line utility that ships with Putty.
> >
> > If you have slowdowns with plink, why do you think I'll see an
improvement
> > by switching to its terminal window?
>
> I have no idea. But it works for me. I haven't spent time on figuring out
> why. My guess was that with the terminal window I have specified a lot
more
> setting related to the terminal type and compression, SSH algorithm etc,
> remote forwarding etc which might make a difference in the speed. And none
> of which I could specify using just plink.

Well, I don't see any improvement. What I did was:

    plink -ssh abrahams@remotemachine
    > emacs&

Trying
    plink -ssh abrahams@remotemachine emacs
Led to
    emacs: standard input is not a tty

> > Uhhhm. Coming up with the correct DISPLAY variable setting for the
remote
> > machine is difficult, isn't it?
>
> Nope, it is not difficult. See above. Frankly I just don't bother with
> DISPLAY anymore. You just need a X server running on your windows box
> either Cygwin or Exceed. If you run Cygwin, I think starting an Emacs from
> a dos terminal with X forwarding set up should open up the Emacs window
> in your XFree86 window.

"emacs: standard input is not a tty"

> > Do you know where I can find a Cygwin version of this tool (or the
> > equivalent)?
>
> Try getting the source and compiling it under Cygwin. I think there is a
> version that comes with Windows too. Try this link:
>
> http://windump.polito.it/


I was afraid it would come to that. I'll wait until someone who can use the
info asks for it, I think.

Thanks for your help.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Richard V. Molen]

Wow, a what a lot of responses!  FWIW I access an RH 7.3 Linux box from a WinNT
box running Cygwin & XFree.  Yes, Emacs 21.2 is ssslllloooowwww at startup. 

I noticed that it was much more responsive using the prior RH 7.2
Linux installation.  I think that installation was using Emacs 20.7 or such.
Using a Cygwin console to 'startx' then using a local xterm in TWM to start
a remote xterm 'ssh -f $RSERVER /usr/bin/X11/xterm' then using the remote
xterm to start emacs 'emacs &' would bring up an emacs session 'ready to use'
faster than 'mozilla -mail &' would.  Now it's the other way around.  

I suspect that it has something to do with the new graphics 21.2, probably
with the fonts, but that's just my guess.

My workarounds?  

1. Get/Use Tramp, misquoting a fellow newsgrouper, "Its *&^%$#@!
   fantastic!"  It can be set up to securely access files on the
   remote server with the same Emacs on the local client.  It doesn't
   require Cygwin or X to run on M$.  No funky 'Oh I have to hit the
   escape key, because "Alt" is not "Meta".  Cut-n-paste between local
   & remote files.  Of course, there's a couple things it won't do --
   it won't brown my toast or make me orange juice ;-).  A big thanks
   to Kai G. for publishing this package!

2. Get/Use VNC or TightVNC.  Emacs 21.2 under the RH 7.3 Emacs 21.2
   setup is much more responsive in VNC than in Cygwin X.  VNC is
   great if all of your work is on the remote server, but it has the
   "Alt" key problem, and I forget how cutting & pasting work between
   local & remote sessions.  To get this to work you would need to
   install a vncserver on the remote server and a vncviewer on the
   local box.  

3. Is your Cygwin installation up to date?  Mine isn't.  Perhaps an
   update has some fonts or libraries required for remote Emacs 21.2.
   I don't have time to look into it right now and I find I use Tramp   
   most of the time.

Hope this helps

-- 
Richard V. Molen

Warning!!
Signature under construction, safety glasses required.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Richard V. Molen" <rvmolen@bambecksystems.com> wrote in message
news:u8z1itczz.fsf@bambecksystems.com...
> Wow, a what a lot of responses!  FWIW I access an RH 7.3 Linux box from a
WinNT

> I suspect that it has something to do with the new graphics 21.2, probably
> with the fonts, but that's just my guess.
>
>
> Hope this helps

Looks like someone sent me the real answer (enclosed).

> My workarounds?
>
> 1. Get/Use Tramp, misquoting a fellow newsgrouper, "Its *&^%$#@!
>    fantastic!"  It can be set up to securely access files on the
>    remote server with the same Emacs on the local client.  It doesn't
>    require Cygwin or X to run on M$.  No funky 'Oh I have to hit the
>    escape key, because "Alt" is not "Meta".  Cut-n-paste between local
>    & remote files.  Of course, there's a couple things it won't do --
>    it won't brown my toast or make me orange juice ;-).  A big thanks
>    to Kai G. for publishing this package!

I'll look for it. I'm a little worried it won't do what I want, though: I
need to do remote compilation and debugging. When there's an error, I want
C-x-` to take me to the correct place in the remote file. I need to be able
to CVS checkout, etc... though I guess I could edit those files on my local
machine if they'll get moved transparently.

> 2. Get/Use VNC or TightVNC.  Emacs 21.2 under the RH 7.3 Emacs 21.2
>    setup is much more responsive in VNC than in Cygwin X.  VNC is
>    great if all of your work is on the remote server, but it has the
>    "Alt" key problem, and I forget how cutting & pasting work between
>    local & remote sessions.  To get this to work you would need to
>    install a vncserver on the remote server and a vncviewer on the
>    local box.

Not an option for me.

> 3. Is your Cygwin installation up to date?  Mine isn't.  Perhaps an
>    update has some fonts or libraries required for remote Emacs 21.2.
>    I don't have time to look into it right now and I find I use Tramp
>    most of the time.

Yep.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com


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end

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Richard V. Molen]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> Looks like someone sent me the real answer (enclosed).

I couldn't read your attachment. :-(  Was there something there I missed?


> > My workarounds?
> >
> > 1. Get/Use Tramp, misquoting a fellow newsgrouper, "Its *&^%$#@!
> >    fantastic!"  
> 
> I'll look for it. I'm a little worried it won't do what I want, though: I
> need to do remote compilation and debugging. When there's an error, I want
> C-x-` to take me to the correct place in the remote file. I need to be able
> to CVS checkout, etc... though I guess I could edit those files on my local
> machine if they'll get moved transparently.

  In case you haven't already found it.  Here's the Wiki page for Tramp & other
  stuff...
  http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TrampMode

  Or this might be faster...
  http://ls6-www.informatik.uni-dortmund.de/~grossjoh/emacs/tramp.html 

  There is a tramp-compile command that I've used to do remote grepping.
  C-h a <ret> tramp shows among other things...

  tramp-compile                 M-x tramp-compile RET
    Command: Compile on remote host.

-- 
Richard V. Molen

Warning!!
Signature under construction, safety glasses required.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Richard V. Molen" <rvmolen@bambecksystems.com> wrote in message
news:u3crqt7q4.fsf@bambecksystems.com...
> "David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:
>
> > Looks like someone sent me the real answer (enclosed).
>
> I couldn't read your attachment. :-(  Was there something there I missed?

http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/emacs-devel/2002-September/012633.html

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Richard V. Molen]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> writes:

> > > Looks like someone sent me the real answer (enclosed).
> http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/emacs-devel/2002-September/012633.html

Thanks, apparently it is related to Emacs 21 GUI presentation.  I tried
'emacs --no-init-file --no-site-file' and it seems to speed things up a 
little bit, but hardly acceptable.

-- 
Richard V. Molen

Warning!!
Signature under construction, safety glasses required.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[Krishnakumar B]

On Sunday, 29 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> I've been doing some work on remote machines on the other U.S. coast
> recently, and have noticed strange and horrible delays associated with
> running GNU emacs in an X window. At first I thought the problem was the
> speed of traffic associated with X11, but I don't think so any more. The
> reason I say these delays are strange is that they seem to be worst when
> emacs is loading libraries (especially during startup), or just when it's
> trying to respond to "C-x C-f" the first time. On some machines, it takes
> literally minutes to give me the "find file:" prompt. I don't see the same
> problems when running "emacs -nw" in an xterm (that just blasts along like
> crazy), so it can't be having trouble loading the libraries. I don't see
> anything this bad when running Xemacs, so I doubt there's a real problem
> with the X11 GUI stuff. Can't imagine what the problem is. Any ideas?

Enable ssh compression. It helps a lot.

-kitty.

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[David Abrahams]

"Krishnakumar B" <kitty@cs.wustl.edu> wrote in message
news:dmlu1k8cwsc.fsf@charanga.cs.wustl.edu...
> On Sunday, 29 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> > I've been doing some work on remote machines on the other U.S. coast
> > recently, and have noticed strange and horrible delays associated with
> > running GNU emacs in an X window. At first I thought the problem was the
> > speed of traffic associated with X11, but I don't think so any more. The
> > reason I say these delays are strange is that they seem to be worst when
> > emacs is loading libraries (especially during startup), or just when
it's
> > trying to respond to "C-x C-f" the first time. On some machines, it
takes
> > literally minutes to give me the "find file:" prompt. I don't see the
same
> > problems when running "emacs -nw" in an xterm (that just blasts along
like
> > crazy), so it can't be having trouble loading the libraries. I don't see
> > anything this bad when running Xemacs, so I doubt there's a real problem
> > with the X11 GUI stuff. Can't imagine what the problem is. Any ideas?
>
> Enable ssh compression. It helps a lot.

Makes absolutely no perceivable difference. However, there is an enormous
amount of network traffic going by, as I can see by the flashing light on my
NIC. This happens any time a new emacs mode (library) loads on the remote
machine. What in the world could it be accessing on my local machine? All
that handshaking, just as emacs starts up?!?

I heard some rumour that you can work around this with .Xauthority, but I'm
tired of diddling around with things I don't really understand, and I still
can't understand why there should be any difference between emacs -nw and
emacs when it comes to loading libraries.

still-baffled-ly y'rs,
dave

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
           David Abrahams * Boost Consulting
dave@boost-consulting.com * http://www.boost-consulting.com

Re: remote X11/GNU emacs/ssh: Incredible slowness loading libs

[frobware inc]

"David Abrahams" <david.abrahams@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<an804g$8d3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...
> "Krishnakumar B" <kitty@cs.wustl.edu> wrote in message
> news:dmlu1k8cwsc.fsf@charanga.cs.wustl.edu...
> > On Sunday, 29 September 2002, "David Abrahams" wrote:
> > > I've been doing some work on remote machines on the other U.S. coast
> > > recently, and have noticed strange and horrible delays associated with
> > > running GNU emacs in an X window. At first I thought the problem was the
> > > speed of traffic associated with X11, but I don't think so any more. The
> > > reason I say these delays are strange is that they seem to be worst when
> > > emacs is loading libraries (especially during startup), or just when
>  it's
> > > trying to respond to "C-x C-f" the first time. On some machines, it
>  takes
> > > literally minutes to give me the "find file:" prompt. I don't see the
>  same
> > > problems when running "emacs -nw" in an xterm (that just blasts along
>  like
> > > crazy), so it can't be having trouble loading the libraries. I don't see
> > > anything this bad when running Xemacs, so I doubt there's a real problem
> > > with the X11 GUI stuff. Can't imagine what the problem is. Any ideas?
> >
> > Enable ssh compression. It helps a lot.
> 
> Makes absolutely no perceivable difference. However, there is an enormous
> amount of network traffic going by, as I can see by the flashing light on my
> NIC. This happens any time a new emacs mode (library) loads on the remote
> machine. What in the world could it be accessing on my local machine? All
> that handshaking, just as emacs starts up?!?
> 
> I heard some rumour that you can work around this with .Xauthority, but I'm
> tired of diddling around with things I don't really understand, and I still
> can't understand why there should be any difference between emacs -nw and
> emacs when it comes to loading libraries.
> 
> still-baffled-ly y'rs,
> dave


I happened to run into this thread in my quarterly scan of the group.


I had/have the same problem. I dial into a work machine, and can run
emacs (reasonably OK), displaying stuff on my laptop. However, at
times I also need to ssh into another machine  (over vpn, from my work
machine), and this runs into all the problems that David describes. It
takes CxCf about 1 minute to respond. Xemacs isn't so bad, and the
xterm itself works just fine. So it is something to do with gnu emacs.
I tried emacs verion 19/20/21, all exhibit the same problem. Since I
couldn't figure out what was going on, and since I thought this was a
problem unique to my environment (apparently not), I switched to
`emacs -nw', which works just fine. I prefer to use gnu emacs over
xemacs since I am used to the former.

My best guess is that the authentication handshake between emacs, and
ssh/remote-xserver is somehow causing incredible latencies. (I turned
compression on, and that did not help either.)

What blows my mind is that emacs should take so long to load lisp
libraries when run over an ssh/vpn/remote-xserver connection.