From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Freer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs keyboard Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 22:25:48 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: References: <878v88h276.fsf@debian.lduros.net> <50E98D79.9060204@mousecar.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1357511168 16268 80.91.229.3 (6 Jan 2013 22:26:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 22:26:08 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Dan Espen Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 06 23:26:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TryfX-00019i-G3 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 23:26:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54626 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TryfH-00079Z-UC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:25:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:45662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TryfB-00079I-Dj for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:25:55 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TryfA-00049I-2Q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:25:53 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-f47.google.com ([74.125.82.47]:34444) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tryf9-000499-LJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 17:25:51 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id dq11so8827926wgb.2 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:25:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to :message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=WLQjxC/1+uJ4CwPLG3KWygGN8UokQ1dgKfj+KJS2Qug=; b=qmukRJvXMxEJqh2P+BuhWDhmKSXy5ntRnkXgWs4h/l0zRjpGvDjVOCxBt9RwtlDo6f bL/Hbn/VRyAWzcDqKc2b4RlmSub+9b/gwBOMwGR8IfUTxmbn+Z+GNX3xsyuLryc/QCFh thSEH1rtviImdYlZ0dysQyPAW0X3GNg0QGvLZY9jtXV6FBY3si9NhiDspn+qsSv4O7gv 9cxFUtzmARwChyeH+r5FMU4Jev6INTz8txABvVHjGjxG2eG2fnKU+gV2WPIES+cVXTpC B29N6HGrmlz1ike4Yn3vFq9ynHo/smAZwMHKRfe7CmYwRGDtzcqZsWk4SihHPhDJdaQf Ea2A== X-Received: by 10.180.20.198 with SMTP id p6mr6317507wie.19.1357511150779; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:25:50 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from james-System-Product-Name.home (host81-131-172-214.range81-131.btcentralplus.com. [81.131.172.214]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s10sm10523546wiw.4.2013.01.06.14.25.49 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:25:50 -0800 (PST) X-X-Sender: james@james-System-Product-Name In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 74.125.82.47 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:88484 Archived-At: On Sun, 6 Jan 2013, Dan Espen wrote: > James Freer writes: > >> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013, ken wrote: >> >>> On 01/05/2013 04:05 AM James Freer wrote: >>>> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Loic J. Duros wrote: >>>> >>>>> dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) writes: >>>>> >>>>>> Sun (er, oracle) makes that type of keyboard, but >>>>>> also makes one with the control key immediately left >>>>>> of the "A" key, where it was on the original >>>>>> teletype-like machine (name escapes me now, but it >>>>>> ended in "33"). >>>>> >>>>> What's the difference with moving the ctrl key to the caps lock key on a >>>>> standard keyboard? >>>>> http://emacswiki.org/emacs/MovingTheCtrlKey >>>> >>>> It's not a big difference... just preference - less far to stretch the >>>> fingers. Capslock always used to be the location of the ctrl key on >>>> early keyboards which happened to suit those that use the wordstar >>>> keybindings (which are the most efficient in professional writers >>>> opinion... and mine). A lot of emacs users like them swapped for emacs >>>> bindings. Although i've got used to using the right ctrl key for >>>> wordstar mode. >>>> >>>> james >>> >>> Amen (or +1 if you prefer) on both counts. Having learned to type >>> on an actual typewriter and having started into computers with those >>> old teletype machines, and then into PCs with DOS 1.0, I appreciate >>> being able to have the Ctrl next to the 'A' key. That's where it >>> was on the first PCs and where it stayed until, perhaps just >>> coincidentally but perhaps not coincidentally, Microsoft came out >>> with Word. At the time Wordstar was the top editor. But because >>> using Wordstar entailed using the Ctrl key a lot, moving it to the >>> keyboard's hinterlands made it difficult to use and it thereby lost >>> a lot of market share to Word. Isn't it wonderful how a market >>> economy can even rearrange your keyboard? >>> >>> The second Amen/+1 goes to Wordstar keybindings. Somebody put a >>> whole lot of thought into them and made them the most intuitive of >>> any editor of that time and since. You could easily learn how to >>> move around all around in a file you were editing in under an hour >>> and then remember all of the keybindings the next day. Most all the >>> Wordstar keybindings for navigation were also language-independent; >>> that is, you didn't have to know English for them to make sense and >>> so be easily memorable. If I was just starting out in computing and >>> wasn't already so accustomed to emacs keybindings, I'd definitely go >>> to something like joe\jstar for an editor. >> >> Jstar when i'd discovered it was excellent for me. I started using >> wordstar in the 80s... that's how old i am! But i use an editor for >> text not coding... alas jstar doesn't have emacs "visual line mode" or >> softwrap as some folk call it. > > Never tried it (or wanted it), but: > > http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?p=144 > > HOWTO make Emacs use soft word wrap like other editors! > >> All the graphical editors seem to and >> so does vim with "set linebreak". Emacs also does 'hotch' (as i call >> it - i think it's called 'mid screen cursor positioning' or something >> like that) - one's typing and gets to the bottom of the >> screen... automatically it moves up half a screen - that is so >> useful. Not appreciated until you've used it. > > What Emacs does is completely customizable. > > You should not find this surprising. > >> Jstar does that but it's >> a shame about the softwrap. The author is doing some development again >> on Joe. >> >> Emacs does all so that's why i'll stick to it. I'd prefer a cut down >> version or being able to remove ALL the functions from the menu i >> don't want. The games and calculator... all that stuff i don't >> want. But i'm still learning emacs... quite a lot of learning! I'd >> love a basic word processor included... something that just does the >> basics with an rtf file for letters and memos. > > I think you'll eventually find the menus can be modified. Hi Dan > The best part of Emacs is the way it'll do just about anything. > Dan Espen Yes i agree... it's just taking me a while to find my way round it all. james