From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Using Emacs for business Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 02:39:50 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87y2bby1kr.fsf@zoho.eu> <20210615091834.GB24886@tuxteam.de> <87im2ewr3k.fsf@zoho.eu> <20210616072819.GB17919@tuxteam.de> <20210616093202.GC22979@tuxteam.de> <87mtrpvjwy.fsf@zoho.eu> <87im2dtnzk.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18430"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0.7+183 (3d24855) (2021-05-28) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 17 01:45:33 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ltfDx-0004cK-8n for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 01:45:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35450 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltfDw-0002sm-AC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:45:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52104) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltfCg-0002Eu-SV for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:44:15 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:33607) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltfCe-0006mL-Iw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:44:14 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.157.0.23]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000076064.0000000060CA8CCA.00007AAB; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 16:44:09 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87im2dtnzk.fsf@zoho.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: 16 X-Spam_score: 1.6 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam_report: (1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.998 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:130942 Archived-At: * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor [2021-06-17 02:00]: > If you care about money, you should learn a language with > a strong presence in the commercial and business world. > Python is such a language and Python also has very fast devel > time, where even a beginner programmer in Python can get > pretty advanced stuff up-and-running in one or two weeks > or so. Any language is like that. There is nothing so special about any language, I could do it. Emacs Lisp has a main advantage of being bundled with the editor and thus has nice ready made interfaces. For example, I would not like re-inventing the editor. I think that is main feature of it. > Lisp on the other hand has some footing in the university and CS > world but even there it isn't so widespread anymore, and as for the > business world it is very, very uncommon compared to other > languages. What is common or not, that matters maybe for people who apply with companies to get employed. If you do programming for yourself, you may do it in any language you wish and mixture of languages. The place and time I started to learn programming taught me that each computer user is asked to rather program whatever is necessary, and I still keep that opinion today. We may observe plethora of passive computer users who don't even think of learning programming. We started learning it with maybe 7-8 years without computer just by answering programming quiz questions in children's magazines. Any language there is may be good for almost anything. I would be using Icon or Unicon as one of choices, or Racket. Unicon Programming — Unicon Programming v0.6.148 http://btiffin.users.sourceforge.net/up/index.html Icon (programming language) - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon_(programming_language) The Icon Programming Language https://www2.cs.arizona.edu/icon/ > Development time in Lisp is also much slower than in Python and > there are other disadvantages as well from a business point of view I cannot judge about that, not that I have made the experience, so I have nothing to compare to. Though I remember times when I was a proponent of this or that programming language. Technically there are many reasons, practically is what matters. I wish I could just tell to computer to do what I mean, but we are not yet there. > for example try googling a problem you just encountered in Lisp, With googling you mean searching Internet? I don't use Google, mostly other search engines. And I consider good books or manuals more valuable than online searches for solutions to specific practical problems. Within Logo programming language context I have been using Lisp in that sense since long time and it helped me later switch from Perl to Lisp (what a relief). It was breeze to learn Common Lisp, first books were the Gigabook and Common Lisp Cookbook. But I don't like the instability of packages as this or that package would work with this or that implementation... too complex. Sooner or later I will move everything to Emacs Lisp, then later who knows... Boredom causes me to re-write programs. > then do the same in Python, in Python you get tons of quality hits > instantly, in Lisp, for an uncommon problem you might not get a > single one, You see, with Lisp I have not have the same urge to search as whatever I needed was there, my experience is different. Things that may be harder to find are cryptographic functions to be compatible to previous language or some external libraries like those related to email sending or processing and database access. Emacs has it about all. > Lisp also tends to be much more varied in terms of style which I > think is a good thing, but the boss of a company don't like it since > new employees must understand and get into code written by others, > and so on. And there are more examples/reasons. I knew you talk about slav... sorry, employee - boss relations. So in that case both are guided by what is popular and not what is practical. It is corrupt and brainwashed world. Almost any kind of Lisp is just find, including other languages, any is fine. Forth would be just fine language for anything. Icon, any kind is fine as long as the language can technically satisfy the need. Brainstorming is a process that may result with quite nice results and both bosses and slav...sorry, employees should participate in such. Just that world is not so friendly obviously. A government contract somewhere provided requirements to create a database of people and it was for a fat price many months project that in reality could be finished in a single day would those programmes know that technical requirements are already met with some other tools or languages. So they re-wrote whatever already existed from scratch. Reminds me much of the today's Org Mode which would like to be a relational database. If language gives you results, that is it. Using few languages is fine, if it gives result, go and use it. Any language may be good. I think everybody should learn programming, it should be part of elementary school curriculum. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/