Simplification of outline-minor-mode

Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[pietru]

Could there be some consistency in outline-mode as it does get very confusing.
For instance, "Show Branches", "Show Children", "Hide Leaves", "Hide Sublevels".
Lot of esoteric names (leaves, brances), and then it switches to human beings
(children).

If there is "show branches", can there be "hide branches"!

And rather than "Hide Body", call it more appropriately (e.g. Hide All Bodies, Hide Bodies)
Then "Hide body" would mean hide body or current heading.

A very useful thing to have is to show an additional level at a time (e.g Show Sublevel,
Hide Sublevel).

Regards
Peter

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

pietru wrote:

> Could there be some consistency in outline-mode as it does
> get very confusing. For instance, "Show Branches", "Show
> Children", "Hide Leaves", "Hide Sublevels". Lot of esoteric
> names (leaves, brances), and then it switches to human
> beings (children).

Suggestions pietru, what do you think they should be called?

Maybe a clearer distinction between the tree and human world
is called for?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[pietru]

> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 9:07 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode
>
> pietru wrote:
>
> > Could there be some consistency in outline-mode as it does
> > get very confusing. For instance, "Show Branches", "Show
> > Children", "Hide Leaves", "Hide Sublevels". Lot of esoteric
> > names (leaves, brances), and then it switches to human
> > beings (children).
>
> Suggestions pietru, what do you think they should be called?
>
> Maybe a clearer distinction between the tree and human world
> is called for?

Deciding if using trees (branches, leaves), humans (children), or levels (sublevels)
would help.

Also if there is a "show" can there be an equivalent "hide" using the same tag (e.g.
"Hide Branches" and "Show Branches" [Not "Hide Branches" and "Show Sublevels"]).

"Hide Subtree" and "Hide Sublevels" is also confusing.



> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

pietru wrote:

> Deciding if using trees (branches, leaves), humans
> (children), or levels (sublevels) would help.

But let's consider all aspects, for example, it can be as
simple as who do we put in charge? should that be a tree or
a human?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-05-22 00:35]:
> pietru wrote:
> 
> > Deciding if using trees (branches, leaves), humans
> > (children), or levels (sublevels) would help.

You forgot headings and subheadings...

> But let's consider all aspects, for example, it can be as
> simple as who do we put in charge? should that be a tree or
> a human?

Author probably did make better job then our chat here, those words
are part of a Tree structure more or less:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure 

More good references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_(list)



-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
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Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 9:47 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode
>
> * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-05-22 00:35]:
> > pietru wrote:
> >
> > > Deciding if using trees (branches, leaves), humans
> > > (children), or levels (sublevels) would help.
>
> You forgot headings and subheadings...
>
> > But let's consider all aspects, for example, it can be as
> > simple as who do we put in charge? should that be a tree or
> > a human?

Nature, every time.

> Author probably did make better job then our chat here, those words
> are part of a Tree structure more or less:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure

I will think about it and ask some friends.  Looking at it from the tree
perspective should be enough.

> More good references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_(list)
>
>
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

> Author probably did make better job then our chat here,
> those words are part of a Tree structure more or less:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure

Remember tho sometimes one cannot see the forest for all the
trees...

Altho this one is cool, seems to not be too much in either
direction:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-balancing_binary_search_tree

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

pietru wrote:

> And rather than "Hide Body", call it more appropriately
> (e.g. Hide All Bodies, Hide Bodies) Then "Hide body" would
> mean hide body or current heading.

These words (expressions) probably share the same stem, some
of them?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-05-22 00:16]:
> pietru wrote:
> 
> > And rather than "Hide Body", call it more appropriately
> > (e.g. Hide All Bodies, Hide Bodies) Then "Hide body" would
> > mean hide body or current heading.
> 
> These words (expressions) probably share the same stem, some
> of them?

You know what... "Hide body" is incriminating option.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

>>> And rather than "Hide Body", call it more appropriately
>>> (e.g. Hide All Bodies, Hide Bodies) Then "Hide body" would
>>> mean hide body or current heading.
>> 
>> These words (expressions) probably share the same stem,
>> some of them?
>
> You know what... "Hide body" is incriminating option.

I know, and people can be open-minded about their bodies
without putting them on display!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 9:31 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode
>
> Jean Louis wrote:
>
> >>> And rather than "Hide Body", call it more appropriately
> >>> (e.g. Hide All Bodies, Hide Bodies) Then "Hide body" would
> >>> mean hide body or current heading.
> >>
> >> These words (expressions) probably share the same stem,
> >> some of them?
> >
> > You know what... "Hide body" is incriminating option.
>
> I know, and people can be open-minded about their bodies
> without putting them on display!

Show Body sounds like being at Art School in Paris.

> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Jean Louis]

* pietru@caramail.com <pietru@caramail.com> [2021-05-22 00:04]:
> 
> Could there be some consistency in outline-mode as it does get very confusing.
> For instance, "Show Branches", "Show Children", "Hide Leaves", "Hide Sublevels".
> Lot of esoteric names (leaves, brances), and then it switches to human beings
> (children).

Confusion is unavoidable. Please M-x report-emacs-bug and propose
something better.

Show Menu:
==========
Show All is on first place, it opens it all

Hide Menu:
==========
Hide Body is on second place, it does the opposite to Show all

It should be: Show All - Hide All, both on first place in menus, IMHO.

Show Menu <----> Hide Menu:
===========================
2nd place: Show Entry (means show the body), but in Hide Menu is called "Hide Body"

In this case at least the order is somehow right, we give kudo to author.

But look, maybe people drink late night, or consume something, we
don't know where the menu creation like that comes from...

Either: Show Body - Hide Body, or Show Entry - Hide Entry, that makes
sense. Maybe author waits for bug reports as that is how they know
that people use it...

If one hovers with mouse over "Show branches" it speaks about "Show
all subheadings"... hahahhahah 

I don't think "children" should be used there, as that is not really
for authors of text. It would be better that menu items get more
descriptive, more clear. Mouse tips in the echo area are more
descriptive, menu items are confusing.

File a bug and propose how it should be.

I will not file a bug, I will keep it for M-x entertaining-mode. I can
give it to some staff members to count how many hours they need until
they get it. (I don't get it.)

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[TRS-80]

On 2021-05-21 17:03, pietru@caramail.com wrote:

> Could there be some consistency in outline-mode as it does get very
   confusing.

Perhaps tangential, but I recently discovered outshine[0], which I
have not tried yet but appears to be what I have been looking for a
long time now.  Apparently some improvements/changes to outline-mode
to make it more org-mode like.

As a heavy Org user, I could never really get into regular
outline-mode.  For example when Beancount switched to it's own major
mode a couple years ago (with outline as minor mode; previously
org-mode was the major mode), I have felt awkward in there ever since.

Just passing this tidbit along in the hopes it's helpful to someone
else.

Cheers,
TRS-80

[0] https://github.com/alphapapa/outshine

Simplification of outline-minor-mode

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2021 at 5:09 AM
> From: "TRS-80" <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Simplification of outline-minor-mode
>
> On 2021-05-21 17:03, pietru@caramail.com wrote:
>
> > Could there be some consistency in outline-mode as it does get very
>    confusing.
>
> Perhaps tangential, but I recently discovered outshine[0], which I
> have not tried yet but appears to be what I have been looking for a
> long time now.  Apparently some improvements/changes to outline-mode
> to make it more org-mode like.
>
> As a heavy Org user, I could never really get into regular
> outline-mode.  For example when Beancount switched to it's own major
> mode a couple years ago (with outline as minor mode; previously
> org-mode was the major mode), I have felt awkward in there ever since.

People tried to imitate org-mode, but the result has been of major disappointment.
One of the rules for Gnu Programs is for them to work well together.

> Just passing this tidbit along in the hopes it's helpful to someone
> else.
>
> Cheers,
> TRS-80
>
> [0] https://github.com/alphapapa/outshine
>
>