From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 11:37:56 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87r1llsuxq.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> <0e37cf97-b9ee-e3af-16e3-3a312c47e75f@yandex.ru> <83pn14e8zs.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29164"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: gregory@heytings.org, rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 13 09:38:37 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAqRo-0007U1-J4 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:38:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42794 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAqRn-0007Zz-Lo for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 03:38:35 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33336) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAqRN-0007Ze-Sk for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 03:38:09 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:47325) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAqRM-0008Gu-7P; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 03:38:09 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.3]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E07B.0000000060278FED.00005D12; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 01:38:04 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , dgutov@yandex.ru, rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com, gregory@heytings.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83pn14e8zs.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127918 Archived-At: * Eli Zaretskii [2021-02-13 10:13]: > > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:26:26 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis > > Cc: Gregory Heytings , > > Robert Thorpe , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > So Emacs could decide to ignore the shell job control > > C-z in Emacs doesn't invoke job control, it invokes an Emacs command > that _emulates_ job control by sending the SIGTSTP signal to the Emacs > process (if the underlying platform supports suspending; That is how I understood it that it is. Emacs basically helps the shell users and complies more or less to it by providing SIGTSTP signal. Yesterday I was reading that programs need not follow that pattern, so program like Emacs decides if to provide SIGTSTP on Control-Z or not. For the shell user that is technicality and not important. Shell user need to stop the job because either something is happening that need some handling or some other job need to be invoked in the mean time, or information verified. Emacs occupies all screen, when suspended user is back into the outside shell and can handle things and come back, or decide to unsuspend Emacs hours or days later. > otherwise it invokes a subsidiary shell). The "real" job control is > disabled when you enter Emacs, by virtue of the keyboard input setup > Emacs does at startup. You have explained now technical thing, and that is interesting. I was thinking that shell has authority and one can suspend any program. That is how I expected shell to work for decades. I don't remember cases where it did not work. Now I wonder if all programs are first disabling shell control and then deciding to emulate it. For example Midnight Commander or other editors, I can suspend with Control-Z without problem. I wonder if it is the program doing it or the shell itself. > So please don't assume C-z is some shell job control magic; it isn't. > This is Emacs emulating that magic, because we decided long ago to do > that. Arguing that Emacs does it because the underlying shell does it > is therefore counter-productive. Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Your explanation is definitely clarifying for others, for me I understood it already though without those technicalities. Development at the time of deciding to provide Suspend on Control-Z probably did follow the assumption that that is what shell users expect to happen when they click Control-Z so for that key Emacs complies to job control willingly, not submissively. I hope we are fine. Jean