From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:45:54 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87r1llsuxq.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> <0e37cf97-b9ee-e3af-16e3-3a312c47e75f@yandex.ru> <329d68a5edb1128c1e5b@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38326"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 12 21:48:48 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAfMt-0009re-A5 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:48:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40028 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAfMs-0004kc-49 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:48:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36440) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAfLv-0004fp-MN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:47:47 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:50851) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAfLp-0000VA-2Z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:47:47 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.3]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E07B.000000006026E969.00001688; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:47:37 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Gregory Heytings , Dmitry Gutov , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <329d68a5edb1128c1e5b@heytings.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127866 Archived-At: * Gregory Heytings [2021-02-12 15:52]: > > Could we someday stop considering Emacs a "terminal application"? Yes, > > it has a version that works in the terminal, but it's limited in > > features compared to the graphical one. > > According to the recent survey, 30% of the Emacs users use it in a terminal > or console. It is true that the non-graphical version has some limits, > which are limits that are imposed by terminals and consoles, but the fact > that it is possible to use the same program in both situations is, IMO, > invaluable. When I am in VPS or dedicated server I will use first any editor that is available. On NetBSD servers I may type "emacs" as user and face either the real Emacs or some kind of replacement such as `mg' or some other editor with Emacs key bindings, but not real Emacs. Sometimes depending of the system I may type "emacs" and find myself in `vi' or `vim' If I have to administer or change some system configuration, or install some software, then me as system administrator may not identify myself as "Emacs user" but may use Emacs as text editor when ready or available. There are millions of such users who are not identified as Emacs users. I have been referencing data of how many times is Emacs installed just on Debian servers by those users who did submit to report their usage through popularity contest. If I remember well it is more than 16000. Debian GNU/Linux is probably most popular VPS operating system. There are millions of VPSes opened up globally and instances are opening each in a while. Administrators may need just one hour of few hours or maybe days to set it up, they may not dwell in Emacs like we do. I do not consider that survey authentic. But let us say it is. In my opinion that 30% from the survey is much greater number in reality. If we assume that 30% would apply also to those who reported Emacs installations in Debian GNU/Linux than there is at least 4800 users among those 16000 who reported using Emacs in that OS. What about the total number of Debian users or GNU/Linux users in total? I have been referencing it already, those are millions of people an Emacs must be used by millions of people. In my opinion that shall be 8 millions people. What if it is 50% or 4 millions of people than 30% of console users would represent population of over million of people. This data is just for consideration of such proposals to stop considering using Emacs in console. People not identifying as Emacs users may be Emacs users. Identification and hobby and enthusiasm is one thing, separate from duties, business or research. Person may be writing for decades on Emacs without even knowing that he is or could be a dedicated enthusiastic Emacs user who reports each in a while on GNU mailing lists or public forums. As nano user who do not identify as nano user: I am using nano, but I am not nano user in my identifications. As vim user who do not identify as vim user: I do use vim each in a while and before I have been using it almost regularly. I would be using vim even now but I do not know how to setup various input methods like I do it in Emacs. It is faster editor for specific tasks. In Emacs I can enter oe and get German umlaut or other alphabets or cyrillic without problem, but I lack that important capability in vim and so I use it for English only. Maybe it does exist. I do not identify as vim user and would not have time neither interest to answer whatever surveys about vim. As zile user who do not identify as zile user: I have never sent zile bug report neither I know how to do it. Zile just works. I may install it on VPS or systems where I need faster and quicker editing in English without UTF-8. It is sometimes my replacement for Emacs in `mutt' or when some development version of Emacs is making me problems, or when Emacs is too heavy and I still need to edit things. I am also user of mousepad text editor, and I never participate in any forums nor bug reporting related to it so I do not identify as user of mousepad. I also use `mcedit' from time to time, very fancy and usable editor that I invoke through Midnight Commander. I will use `mg' and `e3' editor as `e3em' Emacs version without hesitations as well but do not identify as user of it. In MIT Scheme there is one editor that I may invoke, it is like Emacs or its derivative, but I am not identified as user of it. >From the above description of my persona user experience one can assume that there are millions of Emacs users who will not identify as such neither follow forums, replies or send bug reports, they will edit some files, not necessarily dwell inside of the editor and establish romantic relations with it like we do it here. Jean