From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:26:26 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87r1llsuxq.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> <0e37cf97-b9ee-e3af-16e3-3a312c47e75f@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32655"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: Gregory Heytings , Robert Thorpe , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 12 21:29:22 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAf45-0008LP-Dk for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:29:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48258 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAf44-0002fP-91 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:29:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60804) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAf30-0002dd-Op for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:28:14 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:50739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAf2y-0000EX-6U for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:28:14 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.3]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001DFF5.000000006026E4B9.000013D3; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:27:37 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Dmitry Gutov , Robert Thorpe , Gregory Heytings , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0e37cf97-b9ee-e3af-16e3-3a312c47e75f@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127865 Archived-At: * Dmitry Gutov [2021-02-12 15:55]: > On 12.02.2021 07:42, Robert Thorpe wrote: > > > I agree with Jean Louis on that too. I think C-z C-z is not good > > enough. Every other terminal application uses C-z by itself, it's a > > convention. It's been that way for decades. If you write a terminal > > application and do nothing special then C-z will suspend it. That's > > because it sends SIGTSTP. > > Could we someday stop considering Emacs a "terminal application"? Yes, it > has a version that works in the terminal, but it's limited in features > compared to the graphical one. Millions of users use computers and maintain systems on remote VPSes and dedicated servers. Vultru, Gandi, Digitalocean, Servetheworld.net and many other providers offer such systems. They are managed remotely. Remote computers are accessed by using terminal emulators. While remote X program can run, that is not common to do over slower Internet networks. I can easily run graphical Emacs from a remote computer in local area network but cannot do the same from various VPS providers, and why should I as such dedicated servers and VPSes are meant to run servers and not X Window environments. Those editors useful for system administration within GNU/Linux and BSD derivative operating systems must always run on console or through terminal emulators. I cannot see any significant limitations of features. > 'C-x C-z', a binding which has existed for a long time, is not too hard to > type. Maybe it did exist, I have never used C-x C-z for shell job control as shell job control is not perceived in Emacs in the first place, rather in the description of various shells. Korn shell job control uses Ctrl-Z: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/ssw_aix_72/osmanagement/korn_shell_job_ctrl.html Bash job control uses Ctrl-Z: https://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/html_node/Job-Control-Basics.html zsh job control uses Ctrl-Z: https://gist.github.com/CMCDragonkai/6084a504b6a7fee270670fc8f5887eb4 There is POSIX standard on job control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_control_(Unix)#Commands "A job running in the foreground can be stopped by typing the suspend character (Ctrl-Z). This sends the "terminal stop" signal (SIGTSTP) to the process group. By default, SIGTSTP causes processes receiving it to stop, and control is returned to the shell. However, a process can register a signal handler for or ignore SIGTSTP. A process can also be paused with the "stop" signal (SIGSTOP), which cannot be caught or ignored. " So Emacs could decide to ignore the shell job control and become incompatible to shell users' expectations that Control-Z should work when invoked from shell. The command is expected from shell, not from Emacs. Emacs either complies, like it does not, or developers could decide not to comply to those expectations. That would be detrimental. Jean