From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: (*) -> 1 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 19:29:32 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87r0vuidjc.fsf@eder.anydns.info> <87y1q1kvdm.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9137"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 17 17:31:19 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pHorm-0002CT-H8 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2023 17:31:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pHor7-0005AB-RN; Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:30:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pHor6-0005A2-6v for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:30:36 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pHor4-0006Jc-Ax for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:30:35 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.85.233.9]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000000561C6.0000000063C6CD0C.000017F6; Tue, 17 Jan 2023 09:30:03 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Michael Heerdegen , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87y1q1kvdm.fsf@web.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:142316 Archived-At: * Michael Heerdegen [2023-01-17 18:58]: > Jean Louis writes: > > > Convention in multiplication is that there must be two numbers, that > > is not followed, something else is followed. > > There is no such convention. Every elementary school is there to prove that convention of having at least two addends for addition and two factors for multiplication exists. Thus, sorry, you reality does not correspond to mine. There is no elementary school and I know many of them where pupils would learn how in absence of any factor one shall count 1. By chance, I am providing roomt to mathematics teacher who was not introduced to this discussion, and I just called him and asked him if there is anything that he knows that in absence of factors, the multiplication operation would yield with anything, and he has no idea what we are talking about. What idea he has is that there must be 2 known factors for multiplications and similar for addition. That there may be some convention is not excluded, and that there is identity element in mathematics is fine, but even the page of identity element does not speak of creation of identity elements, but of usage of identity elements. Then we have contradiction that description of functions `*' and `+' and `-' does not speak of any sets or group theory. And we have people speaking yes, group theory, sets. But not description of relation from sets to Lisp function, why? > You don't listen to or don't understand what people write. Could > you please try to do that before continuing this discussion? It > doesn't seem to be the case that you are consulting the references > that had been presented to you. So why are you keeping asking? > Sorry to be direct like this, but what you are doing had been quite > unfriendly for a while now. I am sorry for your feelings. Solution is simple, just do M-x doctor I have not find a reference. And I do not ask if identity element exists, neither if sets exists, etc. I am asking why is it in (some) Lisps? It is so far contradictory to explanation of what function is supposed to do. I can really understand and imagine, vividly, how you get angered by Jean Louis, who keep asking same question over again. No, I did not understand it. I have tried search engines. Where else shall I ask? Picolisp does not think same: (apply '+ '(1 2 3)) -> 6 and (+) -> NIL while in Emacs Lisp (apply '+ '(1 2 3)) ➜ 6 (+) ➜ 0 That makes vague the answer to "why" that one has to use it in such functions as `apply', as Picolisp obviously does not do that way. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/