From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: A survey for Emacs users Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:05:02 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87a6w23omr.fsf@iki.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24375"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/+ (1036f0e) (2020-10-18) Cc: Help GNU Emacs To: Skip Montanaro Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 31 18:06:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kYuKS-0006Aj-R9 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 18:06:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35600 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kYuKR-0003PS-Ox for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 13:06:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54292) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kYuJT-0003P0-Jf for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 13:05:11 -0400 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:55045) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kYuJR-00029Q-I7 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 13:05:11 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.157.0.60]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002A0B3D.000000005F9D9940.00003600; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 17:05:04 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/31 12:38:04 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:124832 Archived-At: * Skip Montanaro [2020-10-31 17:31]: > Thanks, Jean Louis. I've been using GNU Emacs since probably the mid > to late 80s. I'm familiar with the couple mailing lists and the old > comp.emacs* newsgroups. r/emacs was completely new to me, and I'm not > a big fan of forums unless they are the only choice (they tend to be > closed gardens, for example). I do not prefer answering on Reddit as purpose of Reddit is different than purpose of this mailing list. There is not even one official link to GNU.ORG neither to official Emacs website under "Getting Started" section. There is no link to official GNU Emacs manual but there are links to proprietary book Mastering Emacs and O'reilly book. Reddit is advertising platform. There are no special set of principles. It says that /r/emacs has 46000 users. Well how many of them are really reporting bugs, do they know about it? I doubt somehow. Additionally site is not usable with LibreJS or Javascript turned off. > A couple specific points: > > > Is the list discoverable? I do not think so. It is well hidden from > > Emacs users. > > This list? It's right there on the listinfo page of lists.gnu.org. > Unfortunately, its name separates it from the other Emacs-related > mailing lists. Seems a bit late for a name change at this point, > however. It is clear to me and you. I just gave you example above. Question is rather how majority of people get Emacs? Do they get it like me through "git pull" in days in a while? Or do they get it on their system or on DVD as part of the OS. Most probably it is part of the OS. How can such user discover lists.gnu.org? It is unlikely. Feature should be in main stream Emacs so that users can easily get into the list. Then users who send emails will communicate quite differently than if they are posting on /r/edit in anonymous mode. > > Install the package Hyperbole and you may see how they implement that > > users find the mailing list, it is straight in the menu. If user needs > > help, one can click in the menu and write email. Great. And that is > > for package users. > > I installed Hyperbole and poked around a bit, but it escapes me how > "users find the mailing list." I see links to Hyperbole-related lists, > but nothing which would point a user to other Emacs resources. I must > be missing something. Hyperbole menu -> Mail list to Hyperbole users list That is a model, sample, how Emacs could have it for users. In that manner.