Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

I am having great difficulty introducing UTF Symbols in a document when I am
in Emacs.

I use "C-x 8 Ret LOG" to get the logical symbols.  From then on, I have great
difficulty deciding what to do.  Firstly, I cannot see the actual symbol that is
going to be inserted.  Seeing the actual symbol is much more important that
see the name.  And if one does a mistake, I have to restart the process again -
a process that is very time consuming.

It would be of value to simplify the way one can insert UHF8 characters.  At this
time it is extremely hard and non-intuitive on what to do.

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Stephen Berman]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:07:04 +0000 uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:

> I am having great difficulty introducing UTF Symbols in a document when I am
> in Emacs.
>
> I use "C-x 8 Ret LOG" to get the logical symbols.  From then on, I have great
> difficulty deciding what to do.  Firstly, I cannot see the actual symbol that is
> going to be inserted.  Seeing the actual symbol is much more important that
> see the name.  And if one does a mistake, I have to restart the process again -
> a process that is very time consuming.
>
> It would be of value to simplify the way one can insert UHF8 characters.  At this
> time it is extremely hard and non-intuitive on what to do.

What version of Emacs are you using?  With Emacs 29 and 30, when I type
`C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB', the *Completions* buffer pops up showing this:

Click on a completion to select it.
In this buffer, type RET to select the completion near point.

14 possible completions:
∧	LOGICAL AND
⩑	LOGICAL AND WITH DOT ABOVE
⩞	LOGICAL AND WITH DOUBLE OVERBAR
⩠	LOGICAL AND WITH DOUBLE UNDERBAR
⩜	LOGICAL AND WITH HORIZONTAL DASH
⩚	LOGICAL AND WITH MIDDLE STEM
⩟	LOGICAL AND WITH UNDERBAR
∨	LOGICAL OR
⩙	LOGICAL OR OVERLAPPING LOGICAL AND
⩒	LOGICAL OR WITH DOT ABOVE
⩢	LOGICAL OR WITH DOUBLE OVERBAR
⩣	LOGICAL OR WITH DOUBLE UNDERBAR
⩝	LOGICAL OR WITH HORIZONTAL DASH
⩛	LOGICAL OR WITH MIDDLE STEM

Steve Berman

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Saturday, December 16th, 2023 at 10:16 PM, Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@gmx.net> wrote:


> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:07:04 +0000 uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me wrote:
> 
> > I am having great difficulty introducing UTF Symbols in a document when I am
> > in Emacs.
> > 
> > I use "C-x 8 Ret LOG" to get the logical symbols. From then on, I have great
> > difficulty deciding what to do. Firstly, I cannot see the actual symbol that is
> > going to be inserted. Seeing the actual symbol is much more important that
> > see the name. And if one does a mistake, I have to restart the process again -
> > a process that is very time consuming.
> > 
> > It would be of value to simplify the way one can insert UHF8 characters. At this
> > time it is extremely hard and non-intuitive on what to do.
> 
> 
> What version of Emacs are you using? With Emacs 29 and 30, when I type
> `C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB', the Completions buffer pops up showing this:

Am using Emacs 30.0.50
 
Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further.  For instance,
having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the 
same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".



> Click on a completion to select it.
> In this buffer, type RET to select the completion near point.
> 
> 14 possible completions:
> ∧ LOGICAL AND
> ⩑ LOGICAL AND WITH DOT ABOVE
> ⩞ LOGICAL AND WITH DOUBLE OVERBAR
> ⩠ LOGICAL AND WITH DOUBLE UNDERBAR
> ⩜ LOGICAL AND WITH HORIZONTAL DASH
> ⩚ LOGICAL AND WITH MIDDLE STEM
> ⩟ LOGICAL AND WITH UNDERBAR
> ∨ LOGICAL OR
> ⩙ LOGICAL OR OVERLAPPING LOGICAL AND
> ⩒ LOGICAL OR WITH DOT ABOVE
> ⩢ LOGICAL OR WITH DOUBLE OVERBAR
> ⩣ LOGICAL OR WITH DOUBLE UNDERBAR
> ⩝ LOGICAL OR WITH HORIZONTAL DASH
> ⩛ LOGICAL OR WITH MIDDLE STEM
> 
> Steve Berman

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:43:15 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
>  <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> > What version of Emacs are you using? With Emacs 29 and 30, when I type
> > `C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB', the Completions buffer pops up showing this:
> 
> Am using Emacs 30.0.50
>  
> Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further.  For instance,
> having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the 
> same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".

This already exists: use M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> arrow keys.

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Sunday, December 17th, 2023 at 1:40 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:43:15 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
> > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > What version of Emacs are you using? With Emacs 29 and 30, when I type
> > > `C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB', the Completions buffer pops up showing this:
> > 
> > Am using Emacs 30.0.50
> > 
> > Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further. For instance,
> > having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the
> > same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".
> 
> 
> This already exists: use M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> arrow keys.

`C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' takes a long time to load and display.  All the UTF8
characters get displayed in a long list with M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> moving
a character at a time.  

My interest is in displaying a page (e.g. a table) at a time with just the
UTF8 characters of a particular set.  And shifting one set at a time.

To have an idea, consider the case if `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' shows the first
character set (e.g. Arrows).  Then pressing "M-<DOWN>" again shows the next 
character set (e.g. Math Operators), and so on.  Makes browsing the UTF8 
characters much faster and you are moving by Character Set rather them by
Character Glyph. 

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:58:35 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further. For instance,
> > > having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the
> > > same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".
> > 
> > 
> > This already exists: use M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> arrow keys.
> 
> `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' takes a long time to load and display.

No, not `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>'.  I meant this:

  C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB M-<DOWN>

> All the UTF8 characters get displayed in a long list with M-<DOWN>
> and M-<UP> moving a character at a time.
> 
> My interest is in displaying a page (e.g. a table) at a time with just the
> UTF8 characters of a particular set.  And shifting one set at a time.
> 
> To have an idea, consider the case if `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' shows the first
> character set (e.g. Arrows).  Then pressing "M-<DOWN>" again shows the next 
> character set (e.g. Math Operators), and so on.  Makes browsing the UTF8 
> characters much faster and you are moving by Character Set rather them by
> Character Glyph. 

This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for.  You want a command that shows
Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
character.  I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
so maybe search the various ELPAs.

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Stephen Berman]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:20:31 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:58:35 +0000
>> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>
>> > > Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further. For instance,
>> > > having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the
>> > > same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".
>> >
>> >
>> > This already exists: use M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> arrow keys.
>>
>> `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' takes a long time to load and display.
>
> No, not `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>'.  I meant this:
>
>   C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB M-<DOWN>
>
>> All the UTF8 characters get displayed in a long list with M-<DOWN>
>> and M-<UP> moving a character at a time.
>>
>> My interest is in displaying a page (e.g. a table) at a time with just the
>> UTF8 characters of a particular set.  And shifting one set at a time.
>>
>> To have an idea, consider the case if `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' shows the first
>> character set (e.g. Arrows).  Then pressing "M-<DOWN>" again shows the next
>> character set (e.g. Math Operators), and so on.  Makes browsing the UTF8
>> characters much faster and you are moving by Character Set rather them by
>> Character Glyph.
>
> This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for.  You want a command that shows
> Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
> character.  I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
> so maybe search the various ELPAs.

I know of these two:

https://github.com/ellerh/ubb
https://github.com/lateau/charmap (also available from MELPA)

Steve Berman

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Sunday, December 17th, 2023 at 3:20 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:58:35 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > > Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further. For instance,
> > > > having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the
> > > > same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".
> > > 
> > > This already exists: use M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> arrow keys.
> > 
> > `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' takes a long time to load and display.
> 
> 
> No, not `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>'. I meant this:
> 
> 
> C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB M-<DOWN>
> 
> > All the UTF8 characters get displayed in a long list with M-<DOWN>
> > and M-<UP> moving a character at a time.
> > 
> > My interest is in displaying a page (e.g. a table) at a time with just the
> > UTF8 characters of a particular set. And shifting one set at a time.
> > 
> > To have an idea, consider the case if `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' shows the first
> > character set (e.g. Arrows). Then pressing "M-<DOWN>" again shows the next
> > character set (e.g. Math Operators), and so on. Makes browsing the UTF8
> > characters much faster and you are moving by Character Set rather them by
> > Character Glyph.
> 
> 
> This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for. You want a command that shows
> Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
> character. I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
> so maybe search the various ELPAs.

Yes, stepping through entire Unicode blocks is what I would like to have.
And with the display looking like the usual emacs display when using 

C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB

Which shows both the glyph and the name in table form.

Is this something difficult to code ?  Emacs could have some added 
functionality that could help making such an implementation.

RE: [External] : Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Drew Adams]

> > This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for.  You want a command that shows
> > Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
> > character.  I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
> > so maybe search the various ELPAs.
> 
> I know of these two:
> https://github.com/ellerh/ubb
> https://github.com/lateau/charmap

Probably not exactly what you're looking for,
but maybe it helps:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AproposUnicode

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/apu.el

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Sunday, December 17th, 2023 at 3:20 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:58:35 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > > Although I got it to work, can things be simplified further. For instance,
> > > > having a command that moves from one character set to another, showing the
> > > > same as is shown by the use of "TAB TAB".
> > > 
> > > This already exists: use M-<DOWN> and M-<UP> arrow keys.
> > 
> > `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' takes a long time to load and display.
> 
> 
> No, not `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>'. I meant this:
> 
> 
> C-x 8 RET LOG TAB TAB M-<DOWN>
> 
> > All the UTF8 characters get displayed in a long list with M-<DOWN>
> > and M-<UP> moving a character at a time.
> > 
> > My interest is in displaying a page (e.g. a table) at a time with just the
> > UTF8 characters of a particular set. And shifting one set at a time.
> > 
> > To have an idea, consider the case if `C-x 8 RET M-<DOWN>' shows the first
> > character set (e.g. Arrows). Then pressing "M-<DOWN>" again shows the next
> > character set (e.g. Math Operators), and so on. Makes browsing the UTF8
> > characters much faster and you are moving by Character Set rather them by
> > Character Glyph.
> 
> 
> This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for. You want a command that shows
> Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
> character. I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
> so maybe search the various ELPAs.

Eli.  Could we have a list of Unicode Black Names, so one could do

C-x 8 RET BLOCK-NAME TAB TAB M-<DOWN>

In the last few years, there have been many users who would like to 
easily insert UTF8 characters, even though this has not been very
well received by some developers who have been in the field for a long
time (e.g. regarding Emojis where some prefer text-based communication).

For people in mathematics like myself, easily inserting UTF8 characters
would be considered a valuable innovation.

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for. You want a command that shows
> > Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
> > character. I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
> > so maybe search the various ELPAs.
> 
> Eli.  Could we have a list of Unicode Black Names, so one could do
> 
> C-x 8 RET BLOCK-NAME TAB TAB M-<DOWN>

We could have anything, but someone will have to write the code, and
we will then need to decide that the addition is important enough to
have it bundled with Emacs (as opposed to having a separate package
that interested users will need to install).  AFAIR, currently Emacs
doesn't even know the names of the blocks, because it is not important
for supporting Unicode characters in Emacs.

> In the last few years, there have been many users who would like to 
> easily insert UTF8 characters, even though this has not been very
> well received by some developers who have been in the field for a long
> time (e.g. regarding Emojis where some prefer text-based communication).

For Emoji, we do have a feature that allows to display and select the
one you need: "M-x emoji-list".  That's because Emoji are pictures,
and their textual description is much harder to understand than to
pick up the picture you want.

> For people in mathematics like myself, easily inserting UTF8 characters
> would be considered a valuable innovation.

If you are interested in mathematical symbols, then this should do:

  C-x 8 RET mathematical TAB TAB

then keep hitting TAB to scroll through the list, or use M-<DOWN> and
M-<UP> keys.

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

On Sunday, December 17th, 2023 at 5:43 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:22:25 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > This is not what "C-x 8 RET" is for. You want a command that shows
> > > Unicode characters by Unicode blocks, and then allows inserting some
> > > character. I'm sure someone has already written something like that,
> > > so maybe search the various ELPAs.
> > 
> > Eli. Could we have a list of Unicode Black Names, so one could do
> > 
> > C-x 8 RET BLOCK-NAME TAB TAB M-<DOWN>
> 
> 
> We could have anything, but someone will have to write the code, and
> we will then need to decide that the addition is important enough to
> have it bundled with Emacs (as opposed to having a separate package
> that interested users will need to install). AFAIR, currently Emacs
> doesn't even know the names of the blocks, because it is not important
> for supporting Unicode characters in Emacs.

It would be easier for insertions when knowing the name is not straightforward.

I can work on making the block names if I get some hints on what has to be done.
Or perhaps a schematic I can follow.  Does this require lot of elisp experience?
 
> > In the last few years, there have been many users who would like to
> > easily insert UTF8 characters, even though this has not been very
> > well received by some developers who have been in the field for a long
> > time (e.g. regarding Emojis where some prefer text-based communication).
> 
> 
> For Emoji, we do have a feature that allows to display and select the
> one you need: "M-x emoji-list". That's because Emoji are pictures,
> and their textual description is much harder to understand than to
> pick up the picture you want.
> 
> > For people in mathematics like myself, easily inserting UTF8 characters
> > would be considered a valuable innovation.
> 
> 
> If you are interested in mathematical symbols, then this should do:
> 
> C-x 8 RET mathematical TAB TAB
> 
> then keep hitting TAB to scroll through the list, or use M-<DOWN> and
> 
> M-<UP> keys.

Mathematical Symbols function like Emojis, it is easier to pick up the 
mathematical symbol you want rather than using their textual description.

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:06:16 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > We could have anything, but someone will have to write the code, and
> > we will then need to decide that the addition is important enough to
> > have it bundled with Emacs (as opposed to having a separate package
> > that interested users will need to install). AFAIR, currently Emacs
> > doesn't even know the names of the blocks, because it is not important
> > for supporting Unicode characters in Emacs.
> 
> It would be easier for insertions when knowing the name is not straightforward.
> 
> I can work on making the block names if I get some hints on what has to be done.
> Or perhaps a schematic I can follow.  Does this require lot of elisp experience?

I don't know what has to be done, it depends on what kind of feature
and UI you have in mind.

> > If you are interested in mathematical symbols, then this should do:
> > 
> > C-x 8 RET mathematical TAB TAB
> > 
> > then keep hitting TAB to scroll through the list, or use M-<DOWN> and
> > 
> > M-<UP> keys.
> 
> Mathematical Symbols function like Emojis, it is easier to pick up the 
> mathematical symbol you want rather than using their textual description.

I don't agree.  What's unclear about a name such as "MATHEMATICAL BOLD
CAPITAL A"?

Re: Inputting UTF8 in Emacs

[uzibalqa]

On Sunday, December 17th, 2023 at 6:38 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:06:16 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > 
> > > We could have anything, but someone will have to write the code, and
> > > we will then need to decide that the addition is important enough to
> > > have it bundled with Emacs (as opposed to having a separate package
> > > that interested users will need to install). AFAIR, currently Emacs
> > > doesn't even know the names of the blocks, because it is not important
> > > for supporting Unicode characters in Emacs.
> > 
> > It would be easier for insertions when knowing the name is not straightforward.
> > 
> > I can work on making the block names if I get some hints on what has to be done.
> > Or perhaps a schematic I can follow. Does this require lot of elisp experience?
> 
> 
> I don't know what has to be done, it depends on what kind of feature
> and UI you have in mind.

Something similar to doing

C-x 8 RET mathematical TAB TAB

but for blocks.  Where a table gets displayed and one selects 
with M-Up and M-Down, showing both the symbol and name.

A problem with 

C-x 8 RET mathematical TAB TAB

is that it only shows letters, and does not include mathematical operators.

Just categorising with "mathematical" is still too broad.
 
> > > If you are interested in mathematical symbols, then this should do:
> > > 
> > > C-x 8 RET mathematical TAB TAB
> > > 
> > > then keep hitting TAB to scroll through the list, or use M-<DOWN> and
> > > 
> > > M-<UP> keys.
> > 
> > Mathematical Symbols function like Emojis, it is easier to pick up the
> > mathematical symbol you want rather than using their textual description.
> 
> 
> I don't agree. What's unclear about a name such as "MATHEMATICAL BOLD
> CAPITAL A"?

I never want NEITHER GREATER-THAN NOR EQUIVALENT TO 

And much rather select the symbol directly.  Emacs only supporting names
without showing the symbol is very annoying and time consuming.