* Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? @ 2022-02-18 20:59 emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-18 22:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-18 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Just wondering if a free toolkit like Gtk supports multiple platforms out of the box then would it make sense to use the same GTK-based code on every graphical platform? So using the same toolkit for everything graphics, instead of implementing features for windows, linux, etc. separately? Is there something which native UI code does in emacs UI which GTK could not support? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-18 20:59 Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-18 22:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 3:21 ` emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-18 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote: > Just wondering if a free toolkit like Gtk supports multiple > platforms [...] Indeed, GTK is cross-platform and available for Linux and other systems as well. See: https://www.gtk.org/ -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-18 20:59 Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-18 22:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 3:21 ` emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 3:38 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 3:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Indeed, GTK is cross-platform and available for Linux and other systems as well. Right, so would it be advantageous for emacs to use the same code for graphic UI on every OS, or is there something which emacs can currently do by accessing the native APIs directly which cannot be done via GTK? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 3:21 ` emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 3:38 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 3:44 ` Po Lu ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor; +Cc: emacsq emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: >> Indeed, GTK is cross-platform and available for Linux and other >> systems as well. > Right, so would it be advantageous for emacs to use the same code for > graphic UI on every OS, or is there something which emacs can > currently do by accessing the native APIs directly which cannot be > done via GTK? It isn't available on Haiku and doesn't work very well on MS-Windows, macOS, and even GNU/Linux. For example, it crashes during a display disconnect, fights with Emacs over the size of frames, it cannot utilize selections when connected to multiple displays, correctly position frames on X, warp the mouse pointer, and so on and so forth. The only use for GTK is to support window systems that we don't otherwise support, such as Wayland and Broadway. Otherwise, using that window system directly will almost certainly lead to a better user experience. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 3:38 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 3:44 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 4:10 ` emacsq 2022-02-20 13:41 ` Sergey Organov 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 3:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor; +Cc: emacsq Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > It isn't available on Haiku and doesn't work very well on MS-Windows, > macOS, and even GNU/Linux. > > For example, it crashes during a display disconnect, fights with Emacs > over the size of frames, it cannot utilize selections when connected to > multiple displays, correctly position frames on X, warp the mouse > pointer, and so on and so forth. > > The only use for GTK is to support window systems that we don't > otherwise support, such as Wayland and Broadway. Otherwise, using that > window system directly will almost certainly lead to a better user > experience. FWIW,I've been trying to port the PGTK version of Emacs to GTK 4 (which will eventually replace GTK 3) without relying on any obsolete APIs such as Cairo, and so far it hasn't worked very well. I thought it would have been finished by December, but the GTK 4 drawing model leaves too much to be desired. Not to mention that I had to reinvent file dialogs, menu bars, and popup menus, since there are no reasonably designed versions of those in GTK 4 which don't involve a single static XML file. So sticking to GTK is not a good choice, and certainly not a long-term option. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 3:38 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 3:44 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 4:10 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 4:52 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 14:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 13:41 ` Sergey Organov 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: emacsq @ 2022-02-19 4:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > > It isn't available on Haiku and doesn't work very well on MS-Windows, > macOS, and even GNU/Linux. > Thanks, I didn't use GTK on Windows or Mac, so I just assumed it worked well on those too after 20 years of development. It's strange that after all that time there are still such rough edges. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 4:10 ` emacsq @ 2022-02-19 4:52 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 6:24 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 14:57 ` Arthur Miller 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 4:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacsq; +Cc: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor emacsq <laszlomail@protonmail.com> writes: > It's strange that after all that time there are still such rough > edges. It's simply not a very high priority for the GTK developers, AFAICT. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 4:52 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 6:24 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 6:37 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: emacsq @ 2022-02-19 6:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > > It's simply not a very high priority for the GTK developers, AFAICT. There is also Qt as the other free toolkit (commercial, but dual licensed, also available with L/GPL license). It also supports multiple OSs, it has Wayland support and likely works betten on various platform, since there is a company making a living from it. Have you considered making a "Pure Qt" branch? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 6:24 ` emacsq @ 2022-02-19 6:37 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 6:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacsq; +Cc: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor emacsq <laszlomail@protonmail.com> writes: > There is also Qt as the other free toolkit (commercial, but dual licensed, > also available with L/GPL license). > > It also supports multiple OSs, it has Wayland support and likely works > betten on various platform, since there is a company making a living > from it. > > Have you considered making a "Pure Qt" branch? Qt is not an option, and its Wayland support is much worse than GTK. It would be unacceptable to rely on C++ for an important part of Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 4:10 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 4:52 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-19 14:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-19 19:20 ` emacsq 2022-02-20 1:10 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-19 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacsq; +Cc: Po Lu, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor emacsq <laszlomail@protonmail.com> writes: >> >> It isn't available on Haiku and doesn't work very well on MS-Windows, >> macOS, and even GNU/Linux. >> > > Thanks, I didn't use GTK on Windows or Mac, so I just assumed it > worked well on those too after 20 years of development. > > It's strange that after all that time there are still such rough > edges. Nah. Gtk is fine on it's own, it is just not designed to be used the way it is used in Emacs. For the Qt that come up in later comments, there is nothing wrong to rely on a C++ library or libraries, since Emacs is designed to work with GCC almost exclusively. For example, Emacs already rely on a Rust library (librsvg). However Qt does not have C interface, it is C++ exclusive library, and Emacs would probably have same issues with Qt as with Gtk. That is because Emacs reverse the framowork roles, which does not work always well with toolkits that are designed to be in driving seat of the application main loop and display. There is an interesting post about Emacs and how it threats graphical displays by D. Colascione who I believe implemented, or helped to implement double buffering in Emacs: https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A10107017870677858%7D&path=%2Fnotes%2Fnote%2F&refsrc=deprecated&_rdr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 14:57 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-19 19:20 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 19:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 1:10 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: emacsq @ 2022-02-19 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: Po Lu, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > That is because > Emacs reverse the framowork roles, which does not work always well with toolkits > that are designed to be in driving seat of the application main loop and > display. There is an interesting post about Emacs and how it threats graphical displays by D. Colascione An excerpt: "One simple approach to implementing redisplay is to just redraw all the frames, windows, and buffers from scratch. This approach might be good enough for a shitty 2016 video game like Nuclide or Eclipse, but not Emacs. Emacs was designed for much more constrained systems. Men were men, women were women, and bandwidth was expensive. Consequently, Emacs tries very hard to optimize redisplay." Since today bandwidth is not expensive, does this mean Emacs could move avay from the current redisplay to a simpler method which just redraws everything when required? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 19:20 ` emacsq @ 2022-02-19 19:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:20:35 +0000 > From: emacsq <laszlomail@protonmail.com> > Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>, > emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > > That is because > > Emacs reverse the framowork roles, which does not work always well with toolkits > > that are designed to be in driving seat of the application main loop and > > display. There is an interesting post about Emacs and how it threats graphical displays by D. Colascione > > An excerpt: > > "One simple approach to implementing redisplay is to just redraw all the frames, windows, and buffers from scratch. This approach might be good enough for a shitty 2016 video game like Nuclide or Eclipse, but not Emacs. > Emacs was designed for much more constrained systems. Men were men, women were women, and bandwidth was expensive. Consequently, Emacs tries very hard to optimize redisplay." This is almost unrelated to the issue at hand, which AFAIU is what toolkits to use. Toolkits have almost no role in the Emacs redisplay and no influence on it > Since today bandwidth is not expensive, does this mean Emacs could > move avay from the current redisplay to a simpler method which just > redraws everything when required? No. Redrawing all the windows on all the frames would be unbearably slow, even today. A small example: in Emacs, even moving the cursor one buffer position to the right or to the left triggers a redisplay cycle. Redrawing everything upon each cursor movement would be very slow and will cause an annoying flickering. Redisplay optimizations still count, even today. One (but not the only one) reason is that computers became faster, but people's expectations from them changed accordingly. No one would like to have a 0.5 sec delay in response to some command like cursor motion of window scroll. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 14:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-19 19:20 ` emacsq @ 2022-02-20 1:10 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 13:46 ` Arthur Miller 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 1:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > That is because Emacs reverse the framowork roles, which does not work > always well with toolkits that are designed to be in driving seat of > the application main loop and display. There is an interesting post > about Emacs and how it threats graphical displays by D. Colascione who > I believe implemented, or helped to implement double buffering in > Emacs: > > https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A10107017870677858%7D&path=%2Fnotes%2Fnote%2F&refsrc=deprecated&_rdr That article is misleading. The GLib (GTK) event loop is the least of our problems, which is handled very well with a small amount of code in xgselect.c. That toolkit has its own ideas of how not to listen to the programmer which makes it very annoying to deal with (i.e. in both the X and PGTK builds, it keeps fighting with Emacs over the size of frames, and it's the only build where `scroll-bar-width' doesn't work.) It also has various bugs in features the developers deem uncommon, such as crashing when a display connection is closed. Using GTK all by itself also leads to various missing features and problems with keyboard input. There was a thread on emacs-devel about it lately, and countless bug reports, which cannot be resolved. The event loop is certainly not the problem, since none of these problems are present in the Haiku port where the event loop for each window is run by the toolkit itself in a separate thread, or in an X or Xt build where Emacs drives the event loop with pselect, XPending, and XtDispatchEvent. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 1:10 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 13:46 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > >> That is because Emacs reverse the framowork roles, which does not work >> always well with toolkits that are designed to be in driving seat of >> the application main loop and display. There is an interesting post >> about Emacs and how it threats graphical displays by D. Colascione who >> I believe implemented, or helped to implement double buffering in >> Emacs: >> >> https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A10107017870677858%7D&path=%2Fnotes%2Fnote%2F&refsrc=deprecated&_rdr > > That article is misleading. Is it? > The GLib (GTK) event loop is the least of our problems, which is handled > very well with a small amount of code in xgselect.c. That toolkit has > its own ideas of how not to listen to the programmer which makes it very > annoying to deal with (i.e. in both the X and PGTK builds, it keeps > fighting with Emacs over the size of frames, and it's the only build > where `scroll-bar-width' doesn't work.) > > It also has various bugs in features the developers deem uncommon, such > as crashing when a display connection is closed. Several entire desktops and countless applications implemented with Gtk for different OS:s certainly speak in favor of your arguments. Cetainly it must be problem to Gtk and someone elses incompetence, can't be that Emacs is using it in a manner it wasn't supposed to be used. > Using GTK all by itself also leads to various missing features and > problems with keyboard input. There was a thread on emacs-devel about > it lately, and countless bug reports, which cannot be resolved. > > The event loop is certainly not the problem, since none of these > problems are present in the Haiku port where the event loop for each > window is run by the toolkit itself in a separate thread, or in an X or > Xt build where Emacs drives the event loop with pselect, XPending, and > XtDispatchEvent. So Gtk should be designed as Haiku? Otherwise it is a bug? :) You can either do as you do and consider a framework design to be a bug because it does not fit into your wishful expectations, or you can recognize that the design does not fit a particular application in this case Emacs. There is nothing wrong with that, none framework is required to fit each and every use case in existence. Emacs uses Gtk in a way it is not supposed to and that creates some friction. I don't understand why you need to blame that on Gtk? I am not even very fond of Gtk myself, but there is no reason to be unfair. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 13:46 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 17:53 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 14:05 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 14:12 ` Jean Louis 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 14:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 14:46:30 +0100 > Cc: emacsq <laszlomail@protonmail.com>, > emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > > >> https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A10107017870677858%7D&path=%2Fnotes%2Fnote%2F&refsrc=deprecated&_rdr > > > > That article is misleading. > > Is it? You should listen to Po Lu: he knows what he's talking about. > > The GLib (GTK) event loop is the least of our problems, which is handled > > very well with a small amount of code in xgselect.c. That toolkit has > > its own ideas of how not to listen to the programmer which makes it very > > annoying to deal with (i.e. in both the X and PGTK builds, it keeps > > fighting with Emacs over the size of frames, and it's the only build > > where `scroll-bar-width' doesn't work.) > > > > It also has various bugs in features the developers deem uncommon, such > > as crashing when a display connection is closed. > > Several entire desktops and countless applications implemented with Gtk > for different OS:s certainly speak in favor of your arguments. > > Cetainly it must be problem to Gtk and someone elses incompetence, can't be > that Emacs is using it in a manner it wasn't supposed to be used. How many "other applications" using GTK support dynamic menus and allow users to create their own menus? How many "other applications" using GTK support user-level threads? How many of them let user code control the display to a degree that Emacs does? Yes, Emacs stands out, because it does all of those, and more. > You can either do as you do and consider a framework design to be a bug > because it does not fit into your wishful expectations, or you can recognize > that the design does not fit a particular application in this case Emacs. There > is nothing wrong with that, none framework is required to fit each and every use > case in existence. Emacs uses Gtk in a way it is not supposed to and that > creates some friction. I don't understand why you need to blame that on Gtk? I > am not even very fond of Gtk myself, but there is no reason to be unfair. You never tried to futz with the GTK code in Emacs, did you? It is a collective experience of several generations of Emacs developers that GTK uses some techniques that make Emacs's life very difficult. This is not about assigning blame, nor about fairness, this is just the facts of life. So please understand us when we very much hope a toolkit emerges that is more "friendly" to Emacs than GTK. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 17:53 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 18:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 18:32 ` tomas 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 17:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > GTK uses some techniques that make Emacs's life very difficult. This > is not about assigning blame, nor about fairness, this is just the > facts of life. Please, how is essence of that different from what I said? Gtk chooses to do things that does not fit Emacs, i.e, Gtk is not designed to be used the way that fits Emacs, or with other Words, Emacs use-case does not fit Gtk design. I opposed to the rhetorics of Po who is blaming it on Gtk bugs and devs having their own ideas on input, or what he wrote I don't remember, instead of simply saying that Gtk does not fit Emacs needs. I have tried to say why Gtk and Emacs does not fit well, instead of leaving the original poster wondering how come that Gtk was so rough around the edges after more than 20 years of development, as Po has painted it. > So please understand us when we very much hope a > toolkit emerges that is more "friendly" to Emacs than GTK. I think you are missunderstanding me here. I am not arguing for Gtk to become one and only toolkit in Emacs. I am definitely not the one that favours Gtk as such for Emacs. I was ranting about Gtk tooltips once, considering that Emacs is completely capable of rendering tooltips on its own, no idea if you remember. If you ask me, I would be very happy with Emacs doing its own menus and toolbars, but that is not gonna happen. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 17:53 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 18:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 19:34 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 18:32 ` tomas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:53:45 +0100 > > I opposed to the rhetorics of Po who is blaming it on Gtk bugs and devs having > their own ideas on input, or what he wrote I don't remember, instead of simply > saying that Gtk does not fit Emacs needs. I have tried to say why Gtk and Emacs > does not fit well, instead of leaving the original poster wondering how come > that Gtk was so rough around the edges after more than 20 years of development, > as Po has painted it. Well, some of the problems _are_ due to the GTK developers' decisions about what a GUI program should or should not have. An example is the lack of support for dynamic menus. And you are wrong emphasizing the input issues. Our problems with GTK go far beyond that, as I tried to explain. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 18:08 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 19:34 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-21 1:10 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> >> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org >> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:53:45 +0100 >> >> I opposed to the rhetorics of Po who is blaming it on Gtk bugs and devs having >> their own ideas on input, or what he wrote I don't remember, instead of simply >> saying that Gtk does not fit Emacs needs. I have tried to say why Gtk and Emacs >> does not fit well, instead of leaving the original poster wondering how come >> that Gtk was so rough around the edges after more than 20 years of development, >> as Po has painted it. > > Well, some of the problems _are_ due to the GTK developers' decisions > about what a GUI program should or should not have. An example is the > lack of support for dynamic menus. At least it seems like dynamic menus is something they work on: > You can of course build dynamic menus out of the GMenu and GMenuModel API. The things become slightly more complex if you have extension points, like plugins, that add and remove menus and menu items depending on whether they have been enabled or disabled at run time. We lack a decent API for that. > AFAIR, @hergertme had some wrapper API for GNOME Builder; I think we could expand the API in GIO to have a better story for extensible menus. From: https://discourse.gnome.org/t/gtk4-and-dynamical-menus/8529/3 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 19:34 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-21 1:10 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 7:01 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 16:50 ` Arthur Miller 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 1:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, help-gnu-emacs Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: >> You can of course build dynamic menus out of the GMenu and >> GMenuModel API. The things become slightly more complex if you have >> extension points, like plugins, that add and remove menus and menu >> items depending on whether they have been enabled or disabled at run >> time. We lack a decent API for that. That isn't an option. You cannot attach arbitrary data to such menus, only a GVariant that can be serialized to disk (or stored in HTML). The programmatic GMenu and GMenuModel API also leaves much else to be desired. It is slow, involves recreating the menu bar widget every time something changes, and makes it impossible to create menu elements such as checkboxes which are possible in the XML-based API. `hidden-when' isn't an option, since there is no way to record all the information required for Emacs's very deeply nested menus. After struggling with both interfaces in my GTK 4 port, I decided to create two separate widgets, LwPopupMenu and LwMenuBar, which build their menu contents dynamically based on the contents of a `widget_value'. It cannot look and behave exactly like the native GTK 4 menus, is a lot of code to maintain (and it was already broken once by the changes to layout processing in GTK 4.4), but it's the best that can be done in GTK 4. Meanwhile, the GtkMenu interface that we have used all the way back to GTK+ 2.x works fine, but was deleted by the GTK developers for GTK 4. >> AFAIR, @hergertme had some wrapper API for GNOME Builder; I think we >> could expand the API in GIO to have a better story for extensible >> menus. I won't be convinced until I see such an expansion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 1:10 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 7:01 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 16:50 ` Arthur Miller 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > That isn't an option. You cannot attach arbitrary data to such menus, > only a GVariant that can be serialized to disk (or stored in HTML). ^^^^ Sorry, this should have been "XML". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 1:10 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 7:01 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 16:50 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-22 0:50 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-21 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > >>> You can of course build dynamic menus out of the GMenu and >>> GMenuModel API. The things become slightly more complex if you have >>> extension points, like plugins, that add and remove menus and menu >>> items depending on whether they have been enabled or disabled at run >>> time. We lack a decent API for that. > > That isn't an option. You cannot attach arbitrary data to such menus, > only a GVariant that can be serialized to disk (or stored in HTML). > > The programmatic GMenu and GMenuModel API also leaves much else to be > desired. It is slow, involves recreating the menu bar widget every time > something changes, and makes it impossible to create menu elements such > as checkboxes which are possible in the XML-based API. > > `hidden-when' isn't an option, since there is no way to record all the > information required for Emacs's very deeply nested menus. > > After struggling with both interfaces in my GTK 4 port, I decided to > create two separate widgets, LwPopupMenu and LwMenuBar, which build > their menu contents dynamically based on the contents of a > `widget_value'. It cannot look and behave exactly like the native GTK 4 > menus, is a lot of code to maintain (and it was already broken once by > the changes to layout processing in GTK 4.4), but it's the best that can > be done in GTK 4. > > Meanwhile, the GtkMenu interface that we have used all the way back to > GTK+ 2.x works fine, but was deleted by the GTK developers for GTK 4. I understand; but they have probably changed API because of some reason that suits their goals. Every project prioritize their own goals, that is how life is. They certainly didn't do it to piss off Emacs devs. >>> AFAIR, @hergertme had some wrapper API for GNOME Builder; I think we >>> could expand the API in GIO to have a better story for extensible >>> menus. > > I won't be convinced until I see such an expansion. It looks to me more like an invite to contribute an API, so there is your chance to get it the way you like. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 16:50 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-22 0:50 ` Po Lu 2022-02-23 11:53 ` Arthur Miller 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > I understand; but they have probably changed API because of some > reason that suits their goals. Every project prioritize their own > goals, that is how life is. They certainly didn't do it to piss off > Emacs devs. Where did we say they did it to piss off Emacs developers? We simply wish that a toolkit friendlier to Emacs will emerge at some point and become as popular as GTK is. > It looks to me more like an invite to contribute an API, so there is > your chance to get it the way you like. It would involve reverting several changes that were installed for GTK 4, which I'm sure they're not willing to take. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 0:50 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-23 11:53 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-23 12:03 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-23 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > >> I understand; but they have probably changed API because of some >> reason that suits their goals. Every project prioritize their own >> goals, that is how life is. They certainly didn't do it to piss off >> Emacs devs. > > Where did we say they did it to piss off Emacs developers? We simply > wish that a toolkit friendlier to Emacs will emerge at some point and > become as popular as GTK is. > >> It looks to me more like an invite to contribute an API, so there is >> your chance to get it the way you like. > > It would involve reverting several changes that were installed for GTK > 4, which I'm sure they're not willing to take. Why designing an API means reverting changes? I dont' think designing an API is reverting it back to old API. Anyway, summarizing all you write her eand in other mails, it is where the thread initially started, Gtk is not designed to be used the way Emacs would like it. Gtk works fine for applications that use it the way it is designed, Emacs has different needs and it does not work well for Emacs. You call it a bug, they call it design, and there I think is the friction. Is there a way to reproduce this bug on a singel machine with one monitor? Can I do it from within a virtual machine(s) or somethinig? I am not so familiar with setting up networks and virtual machines and such. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-23 11:53 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-23 12:03 ` Po Lu 2022-02-23 18:34 ` Arthur Miller 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-23 12:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > Why designing an API means reverting changes? I dont' think designing > an API is reverting it back to old API. Because the API we need is precisely the one that was deleted. On purpose. > Is there a way to reproduce this bug on a singel machine with one > monitor? Yes: run Xephyr (or Xnest) like this: Xephyr :2 Then select File -> New frame on Display Server from the menu bar, enter :2, then close the Xephyr window. Emacs will either abort (on the X and GTK build), or simply exit without warning (on the PGTK build.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-23 12:03 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-23 18:34 ` Arthur Miller 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-23 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > >> Why designing an API means reverting changes? I dont' think designing >> an API is reverting it back to old API. > > Because the API we need is precisely the one that was deleted. On > purpose. They have obviously had reasons to delete it. That the "design" part :). And as the quoted (and linked) answer from Bassi shows, they are not against the API, they want better one. So it would be more constructive to help them desing a new API in accordance to the new GTK design, than complaning and being grumpy about the old API. They obviously won't put back the old API, they wouldn't delete in the first place if that would be the case. There is actually a chance that you can affect the desing of Gtk so it suites better Emacs needs, but you are refusing under different excuses. >> Is there a way to reproduce this bug on a singel machine with one >> monitor? > > Yes: run Xephyr (or Xnest) like this: > > Xephyr :2 > > Then select File -> New frame on Display Server from the menu bar, enter > :2, then close the Xephyr window. Emacs will either abort (on the X and > GTK build), or simply exit without warning (on the PGTK build.) Ok, thanks, I'll try with Xephyr and Gtk. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 17:53 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 18:08 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 18:32 ` tomas 2022-02-20 18:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-21 1:13 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-02-20 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 832 bytes --] On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 06:53:45PM +0100, Arthur Miller wrote: [...] > I opposed to the rhetorics of Po who is blaming it on Gtk bugs and devs having > their own ideas on input [...] Now we're in blame territory. The "close X display thing" is actually a long standing Gtk bug (around Gtk 2). X programs could always connect to more than one display, and could close one or more of them. Gtk chose to just crash the program when closing a display. This was acknowledged as a bug, but never fixed. Have a look here [1] for that long winded history. Now you can describe calling this "a bug" as rhethoric, but to me, a spade is a spade is a spade. Don't get me wrong: the Gtk people are in their full right to WONTFIX this, of course. Cheers [1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85715 -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 18:32 ` tomas @ 2022-02-20 18:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 19:47 ` tomas 2022-02-21 1:13 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 18:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tomas; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes: > On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 06:53:45PM +0100, Arthur Miller wrote: > > [...] > >> I opposed to the rhetorics of Po who is blaming it on Gtk bugs and devs having >> their own ideas on input [...] > > Now we're in blame territory. The "close X display thing" is actually a > long standing Gtk bug (around Gtk 2). X programs could always connect to > more than one display, and could close one or more of them. Gtk chose > to just crash the program when closing a display. This was acknowledged > as a bug, but never fixed. > It was the only one concrete mentioned, but there were also words like "various" and some other statments on devs having strange ideas, not working well on Windows, while it seems to work fine for many applications etc. > Have a look here [1] for that long winded history. Thank you for the link. > Now you can describe calling this "a bug" as rhethoric, but to me, a > spade is a spade is a spade. Don't get me wrong: the Gtk people are > in their full right to WONTFIX this, of course. I don't see it as a "wontfix", it looks to me like they are just asking for more comprehensible stack traces: > Emacs calls abort() when closing the display to deal with something that GTK 2 did when coupled with Emacs's own client/server architecture where any process can suddenly become the owner of a display connection. People keep posting useless stack traces that end with the intentional abort() call inside Emacs, useless comments about "this still happens to me" (yes: Emacs still calls abort()), or any other random Emacs stack trace coming from any other random issue they have. > GDK could use somebody going through the code with a smaller test case than the whole of Emacs, to check if closing a display connection on different backends breaks the existing API contract. If that happens: > open a new bug > track the stack traces and see where we're trying to access a display post-closure > possibly open a merge request that fixes all the instances > Until that time, I'm going to close this issue because it's ridiculous. Quoted from: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/221 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 18:57 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 19:47 ` tomas 2022-02-21 1:18 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-02-20 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 411 bytes --] On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 07:57:30PM +0100, Arthur Miller wrote: [...] > I don't see it as a "wontfix", it looks to me like they > are just asking for more comprehensible stack traces: That's exactly how I read this long-winded bug thread. > > > Emacs calls abort() [...] Note that Emacs calls that abort to not run into this bug. This is explicitly mentioned in the thread. Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 19:47 ` tomas @ 2022-02-21 1:18 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 5:58 ` tomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 1:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tomas; +Cc: Arthur Miller, help-gnu-emacs tomas@tuxteam.de writes: > Note that Emacs calls that abort to not run into this bug. This is > explicitly mentioned in the thread. More history: Emacs used to call signal to break out of the X error handler before GDK had a chance to call _exit. Until recently a longjmp out of the GLib event loop would only cause lots of warnings to be printed, so that call to signal would avoid the code path where GDK would deliberately shut down the application. That was replaced by a call to abort some time ago since the warnings tended to make Emacs slow and flood .Xsession-errors with up to 50 GBs of warning messages. But since recently the call to signal cannot work anymore, since GLib will immediately crash upon next entering its event loop. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 1:18 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 5:58 ` tomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-02-21 5:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs, Arthur Miller [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 379 bytes --] On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 09:18:17AM +0800, Po Lu wrote: > tomas@tuxteam.de writes: > > > Note that Emacs calls that abort to not run into this bug. This is > > explicitly mentioned in the thread. > > More history: Emacs used to call signal to break out of the X error > handler before GDK had a chance to call _exit [...] Thanks for that history :) Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 18:32 ` tomas 2022-02-20 18:57 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-21 1:13 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 1:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tomas; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes: > Now we're in blame territory. The "close X display thing" is actually a > long standing Gtk bug (around Gtk 2). X programs could always connect to > more than one display, and could close one or more of them. Gtk chose > to just crash the program when closing a display. This was acknowledged > as a bug, but never fixed. FTR, the longer explanation is that GTK+ originally didn't have the ability to connect to multiple displays, so that was missing from the GTK+ build of Emacs for a long time. At some point in the GTK+ 2.x release cycle (2.6 or 2.8, AFAIR), such a feature was implemented, but people soon discovered that closing a display would cause a crash in the toolkit. That was actually fixed for a couple of releases but soon reappeared, after which their developers stopped wanting to fix that bug. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 13:46 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 14:05 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 18:40 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-21 13:53 ` Max Brieiev 2022-02-20 14:12 ` Jean Louis 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > Is it? It is. > Several entire desktops and countless applications implemented with > Gtk for different OS:s certainly speak in favor of your arguments. Emacs is more complicated and demanding a program than most of those desktops and applications. For instance, they typically don't support connecting to and displaying windows on multiple displays from the same process. > Cetainly it must be problem to Gtk and someone elses incompetence, > can't be that Emacs is using it in a manner it wasn't supposed to be > used. So we should limit our features to what GTK provides? Just to name a few, that would entail removing support for multi-TTY, distinguishing "C-S-u" from "C-u", controlling the size of scroll bars, reliable control over frame size? If you want such an experience, by all means use the PGTK build. But those features are important to many other people, so we cannot rely on PGTK. > So Gtk should be designed as Haiku? Otherwise it is a bug? :) I'm not, but the problem has nothing to do with how Emacs handles the toolkit event loop. > You can either do as you do and consider a framework design to be a > bug because it does not fit into your wishful expectations I expect a toolkit which people expect to become the basis of the Emacs GUI to be designed suitably, which is hardly wishful thinking. > or you can recognize that the design does not fit a particular > application in this case Emacs. There is nothing wrong with that, none > framework is required to fit each and every use case in > existence. Emacs uses Gtk in a way it is not supposed to and that > creates some friction. Whether or not it's suitable for other applications, the friction between Emacs and GTK cannot be resolved, so that indeed makes GTK unsuitable as the sole window system for Emacs. > I don't understand why you need to blame that on Gtk? I am not even > very fond of Gtk myself, but there is no reason to be unfair. When a toolkit that is part of the GNU project makes deliberate design decisions which prevents it from being used to implement Emacs, I think it is quite right to complain. Especially when older versions of said toolkit used to work fine. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 14:05 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 18:40 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-21 1:02 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 13:53 ` Max Brieiev 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-20 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > >> Is it? > > It is. > >> Several entire desktops and countless applications implemented with >> Gtk for different OS:s certainly speak in favor of your arguments. > > Emacs is more complicated and demanding a program than most of those > desktops and applications. For instance, they typically don't support > connecting to and displaying windows on multiple displays from the same > process. >> Cetainly it must be problem to Gtk and someone elses incompetence, >> can't be that Emacs is using it in a manner it wasn't supposed to be >> used. > > So we should limit our features to what GTK provides? Just to name a > few, that would entail removing support for multi-TTY, distinguishing > "C-S-u" from "C-u", controlling the size of scroll bars, reliable > control over frame size? > > If you want such an experience, by all means use the PGTK build. But > those features are important to many other people, so we cannot rely on > PGTK. > >> So Gtk should be designed as Haiku? Otherwise it is a bug? :) > > I'm not, but the problem has nothing to do with how Emacs handles the > toolkit event loop. > >> You can either do as you do and consider a framework design to be a >> bug because it does not fit into your wishful expectations > > I expect a toolkit which people expect to become the basis of the Emacs > GUI to be designed suitably, which is hardly wishful thinking. I think you will have to reflect on what I have said. I have posted an article about why Emacs is not very compatible with Gtk, and probably wouldn't be compatible with Qt either, even if there was a suitable C interface Emacs could use. We can certainly agree to disagree about the article, but you should definitely reflect better over what I wrote and why. I didn't lobbied for Gtk to become the one and only toolkit to use, I just opposed your rhetorics about Gtk bugs, "devs strange ideas" and what not, and the impression you left on the person. I am not trying to be impolite or unrespectful, but I find your arguments and rhetorics often dogmatic. >> or you can recognize that the design does not fit a particular >> application in this case Emacs. There is nothing wrong with that, none >> framework is required to fit each and every use case in >> existence. Emacs uses Gtk in a way it is not supposed to and that >> creates some friction. > > Whether or not it's suitable for other applications, the friction > between Emacs and GTK cannot be resolved, so that indeed makes GTK > unsuitable as the sole window system for Emacs. Sure we can agree on that one. But you used rhetorics that left impression it depends on bugs, and Gtk devs having their own strange ideas about something. Those are different reasons but not being suitable by design. Read my very first replay in this thread, it should have been clear there. >> I don't understand why you need to blame that on Gtk? I am not even >> very fond of Gtk myself, but there is no reason to be unfair. > > When a toolkit that is part of the GNU project makes deliberate design > decisions which prevents it from being used to implement Emacs, I think > it is quite right to complain. Why would it be a right to complain? There are many other libraries and frameworks that are not suitable for use in Emacs. It is no ones obligation to make their software fit someones particular needs. I am quite sure they are trying to make it usable for the most applications out there. If Emacs is not one of those, so be it. But it is not their obligation to make it usable for each and every application under the Sun either, just like Emacs does not have obligation to fit into everyones wishes and desires either. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 18:40 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-21 1:02 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 19:34 ` Arthur Miller 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > I think you will have to reflect on what I have said. I have posted an > article about why Emacs is not very compatible with Gtk, and probably > wouldn't be compatible with Qt either, even if there was a suitable C > interface Emacs could use. We can certainly agree to disagree about > the article, but you should definitely reflect better over what I > wrote and why. I didn't lobbied for Gtk to become the one and only > toolkit to use, I just opposed your rhetorics about Gtk bugs, "devs > strange ideas" and what not, and the impression you left on the > person. I am not trying to be impolite or unrespectful, but I find > your arguments and rhetorics often dogmatic. Your argument can only be convincing if you have spent most of the past week dealing with various instances of using GTK interfaces such as `gtk_window_set_geometry_hints' according to their documentation, only to see them do something completely different. I have. And I'm not convinced. > Sure we can agree on that one. But you used rhetorics that left > impression it depends on bugs, and Gtk devs having their own strange > ideas about something. Those are different reasons but not being > suitable by design. Read my very first replay in this thread, it > should have been clear there. Many of the problems in GTK affecting Emacs are bugs contradicting their documented behavior that the GTK developers don't want to fix, since they find Emacs not sufficiently important. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 1:02 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 19:34 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-22 0:55 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-21 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > >> I think you will have to reflect on what I have said. I have posted an >> article about why Emacs is not very compatible with Gtk, and probably >> wouldn't be compatible with Qt either, even if there was a suitable C >> interface Emacs could use. We can certainly agree to disagree about >> the article, but you should definitely reflect better over what I >> wrote and why. I didn't lobbied for Gtk to become the one and only >> toolkit to use, I just opposed your rhetorics about Gtk bugs, "devs >> strange ideas" and what not, and the impression you left on the >> person. I am not trying to be impolite or unrespectful, but I find >> your arguments and rhetorics often dogmatic. > > Your argument can only be convincing if you have spent most of the past > week dealing with various instances of using GTK interfaces such as > `gtk_window_set_geometry_hints' according to their documentation, only > to see them do something completely different. > > I have. And I'm not convinced. > >> Sure we can agree on that one. But you used rhetorics that left >> impression it depends on bugs, and Gtk devs having their own strange >> ideas about something. Those are different reasons but not being >> suitable by design. Read my very first replay in this thread, it >> should have been clear there. > > Many of the problems in GTK affecting Emacs are bugs contradicting their > documented behavior that the GTK developers don't want to fix, since > they find Emacs not sufficiently important. I don't see them saying we won't fix this, nor that Emacs is not important, 2315 is still open. What I also see myself is that for about last ~15 years, it is only Emacs users that seems to be affected by this bugs. I have read, just of my own curiosity through entire of those bug threads: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/221 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/2315 What I see them say, more or less is help us to help you. I won't say it is bug in Emacs nor will I say it is bug in Gtk, I'll just say leave some reservation that Emacs could maybe could do something else. You seem to be very knowledgable about Gtk and Eli says you know what you are doing, have you try to work with them to solve the problem? But maybe for Emacs devs this is not important either, in which case we are just arguing about smoke :). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 19:34 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-22 0:55 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller; +Cc: emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes: > I don't see them saying we won't fix this, nor that Emacs is not > important, 2315 is still open. > > What I also see myself is that for about last ~15 years, it is only > Emacs users that seems to be affected by this bugs. Because Emacs is the only program that will be affected by these bugs? And the program the GTK+ multi-display API was created for in the first place, AFAIR. > What I see them say, more or less is help us to help you. I won't say > it is bug in Emacs nor will I say it is bug in Gtk, I'll just say > leave some reservation that Emacs could maybe could do something else. > You seem to be very knowledgable about Gtk and Eli says you know what > you are doing, have you try to work with them to solve the problem? What extra help could we offer? That bug has been trivially reproducible (and not just via Emacs) for the past 15+ years. It was even fixed for a few releases of GTK+ before it reappeared. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 14:05 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 18:40 ` Arthur Miller @ 2022-02-21 13:53 ` Max Brieiev 2022-02-22 0:56 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Max Brieiev @ 2022-02-21 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > So we should limit our features to what GTK provides? Just to name a > few, that would entail removing support for multi-TTY, distinguishing > "C-S-u" from "C-u", controlling the size of scroll bars, reliable > control over frame size? > > If you want such an experience, by all means use the PGTK build. But > those features are important to many other people, so we cannot rely on > PGTK. From what I have read in this thread, does it mean that `--with-pgtk` build is less featureful (more buggy?) than "non-pure" build? And as a consequence, does it mean that Emacs on Wayland is more quirky than on X, due to the "problems" with GTK? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 13:53 ` Max Brieiev @ 2022-02-22 0:56 ` Po Lu 2022-02-22 12:00 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 0:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> writes: > From what I have read in this thread, does it mean that `--with-pgtk` > build is less featureful (more buggy?) than "non-pure" build? Yes, and that non-pure build will generally work worse than a Lucid or Motif build. > And as a consequence, does it mean that Emacs on Wayland is more > quirky than on X, due to the "problems" with GTK? Indeed. And some of the problem lies with the Wayland protocol as well. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 0:56 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 12:00 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 12:02 ` Po Lu 2022-02-22 14:05 ` Jean Louis 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Byung-Hee HWANG @ 2022-02-22 12:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> writes: > >> [...] >> And as a consequence, does it mean that Emacs on Wayland is more >> quirky than on X, due to the "problems" with GTK? > > Indeed. And some of the problem lies with the Wayland protocol as well. Really i would be to use pgtk things, so when will the 28.1 (GNU Emacs) be released? (and thanks for the explanation Po ^^^) Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee -- ^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))// ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 12:00 ` Byung-Hee HWANG @ 2022-02-22 12:02 ` Po Lu 2022-02-22 12:33 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 14:05 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> writes: > Really i would be to use pgtk things, > so when will the 28.1 (GNU Emacs) be released? The PGTK port will not be part of Emacs 28.1, you will need to wait for Emacs 29. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 12:02 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 12:33 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 14:09 ` Jean Louis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Byung-Hee HWANG @ 2022-02-22 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> writes: > >> Really i would be to use pgtk things, >> so when will the 28.1 (GNU Emacs) be released? > > The PGTK port will not be part of Emacs 28.1, you will need to wait for > Emacs 29. Ah... yes! I'll wait for Emacs 29! Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee -- ^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))// ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 12:33 ` Byung-Hee HWANG @ 2022-02-22 14:09 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-22 14:39 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> [2022-02-22 15:42]: > Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > > > Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> writes: > > > >> Really i would be to use pgtk things, > >> so when will the 28.1 (GNU Emacs) be released? > > > > The PGTK port will not be part of Emacs 28.1, you will need to wait for > > Emacs 29. > > Ah... yes! I'll wait for Emacs 29! Come on, just use 🐃 Emacs development version: (emacs-version) ⇒ "GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.17.4, Xaw3d scroll bars) of 2022-02-18" $ git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 14:09 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:39 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Byung-Hee HWANG @ 2022-02-22 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > * Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> [2022-02-22 15:42]: >> Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: >> >> > Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> writes: >> > >> >> Really i would be to use pgtk things, >> >> so when will the 28.1 (GNU Emacs) be released? >> > >> > The PGTK port will not be part of Emacs 28.1, you will need to wait for >> > Emacs 29. >> >> Ah... yes! I'll wait for Emacs 29! > > Come on, just use 🐃 Emacs development version: > > (emacs-version) ⇒ "GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.17.4, Xaw3d scroll bars) > of 2022-02-18" > > $ git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git Hellow Jean! Thanks for guidance! However, still i'm beginner in Emacs. Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee -- ^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))// ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 12:00 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 12:02 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-22 14:05 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Byung-Hee HWANG <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> [2022-02-22 15:03]: > Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > > > Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> writes: > > > >> [...] > >> And as a consequence, does it mean that Emacs on Wayland is more > >> quirky than on X, due to the "problems" with GTK? > > > > Indeed. And some of the problem lies with the Wayland protocol as well. > > Really i would be to use pgtk things, > so when will the 28.1 (GNU Emacs) be released? You can always use Emacs Development version and all of the new un-released features. That is what I use. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 13:46 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 14:05 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 14:12 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 16:46 ` Samuel Banya 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Arthur Miller Cc: Po Lu, emacsq, emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Some comparison of toolkits: GUI Toolkit Comparison - LXDE.org https://wiki.lxde.org/en/GUI_Toolkit_Comparison -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 14:12 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 16:46 ` Samuel Banya 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-20 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg Not going to lie, but this discussion between the great Linux greybeard wizards has been fascinating. Just wanted to put it out there that you guys are awesome :) Thanks for the inputs on all sides, very cool to see these perspectives. Sincerely, Sam On Sun, Feb 20, 2022, at 9:12 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > Some comparison of toolkits: > > GUI Toolkit Comparison - LXDE.org > https://wiki.lxde.org/en/GUI_Toolkit_Comparison > > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 3:38 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 3:44 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 4:10 ` emacsq @ 2022-02-20 13:41 ` Sergey Organov 2022-02-20 13:54 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 20:11 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Sergey Organov @ 2022-02-20 13:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacsq, help-gnu-emacs Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: > >>> Indeed, GTK is cross-platform and available for Linux and other >>> systems as well. > >> Right, so would it be advantageous for emacs to use the same code for >> graphic UI on every OS, or is there something which emacs can >> currently do by accessing the native APIs directly which cannot be >> done via GTK? > > It isn't available on Haiku and doesn't work very well on MS-Windows, > macOS, and even GNU/Linux. > I was under impression that GIMP uses GTK and then it works fine for me on at least GNU/Linux and MS-Windows. Is Emacs more demanding than GIMP? Thanks, -- Sergey Organov ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 13:41 ` Sergey Organov @ 2022-02-20 13:54 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 20:11 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 13:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sergey Organov; +Cc: emacsq, help-gnu-emacs Sergey Organov <sorganov@gmail.com> writes: > I was under impression that GIMP uses GTK and then it works fine for me > on at least GNU/Linux and MS-Windows. Is Emacs more demanding than GIMP? Indeed. Some trivial examples: interrupt-based input cannot work outside Wayland and X11 in the PGTK build, and the GTK input methods process keys in such a way that information important to Emacs is lost. And there's also the show-stopper bug where GTK crashes when a display connection is closed, which also affects the regular GTK build. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 13:41 ` Sergey Organov 2022-02-20 13:54 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 20:11 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Byung-Hee HWANG @ 2022-02-20 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Sergey Organov <sorganov@gmail.com> writes: > [...] > I was under impression that GIMP uses GTK and then it works fine for me > on at least GNU/Linux and MS-Windows. Is Emacs more demanding than GIMP? +1; and thanks! > Thanks, > -- Sergey Organov Sincerely, GTK fan Byung-Hee -- ^고맙습니다 _和合團結_ 감사합니다_^))// ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-18 20:59 Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-18 22:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 3:21 ` emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 7:38 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 7:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:59:38 +0000 > From: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > Just wondering if a free toolkit like Gtk supports multiple platforms out of the box then would it make sense to use the same GTK-based code on every graphical platform? So using the same toolkit for everything graphics, instead of implementing features for windows, linux, etc. separately? Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and Unix systems. > Is there something which native UI code does in emacs UI which GTK could not support? GTK has many problems, so I very much hope the future of Emacs is not with GTK, but with some better toolkit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 7:38 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 8:53 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 7:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and > Unix systems. :) George W Bush was once asked on a press conference what journalists eat. He answered, "They eat cheese and Brie" :) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 7:38 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 8:53 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 9:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 8:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:38:09 +0100 > From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Emacs currently supports building with GTK only on GNU and > > Unix systems. > > :) > > George W Bush was once asked on a press conference what > journalists eat. He answered, "They eat cheese and Brie" Are you sure the joke isn't on you? The first line of the GNU Manifesto says: What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! (https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.en.html) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 8:53 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 9:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 9:26 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 9:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> Emacs currently supports building with GTK only on GNU and >>> Unix systems. >> >> George W Bush was once asked at a press conference what >> journalists eat. He answered, "They eat cheese and Brie" :) > > Are you sure the joke isn't on you? > > The first line of the GNU Manifesto says: > > What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! _That_'s the joke ... GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! As is Linux ... See that "x"? Ever contemplated what that means? X marks the unknown? So GNU/Linux that's even Unix**2 ... OpenBSD and so on are also Unix. But not macOS or Android, how ever that would work? Don't be silly ... POSIX = Portable Operating System Interface, coined by RMS ... or am I wrong? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 9:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 9:26 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 12:04 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 10:01 ` Pankaj Jangid 2022-02-19 17:54 ` Jean Louis 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 9:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:09:01 +0100 > From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > The first line of the GNU Manifesto says: > > > > What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! > > _That_'s the joke ... Not really. The _acronym_ is a joke, but not the idea. > GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! > > As is Linux ... No, they aren't. The kernel is very different, most of the utilities are very different, etc. > POSIX = Portable Operating System Interface, coined by RMS ... > or am I wrong? You are wrong. POSIX indeed covers both Unix and GNU systems, so if I said "POSIX and GNU", that would be a funny mistake. But that's not what I said. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 9:26 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 12:04 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 12:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> The first line of the GNU Manifesto says: >>> >>> What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! >> >> _That_'s the joke ... > > Not really. The _acronym_ is a joke, but not the idea. The acronym is a joke and the joke is/conveys the correct, non-joke idea and goal of the whole project, namely that GNU both _isn't_ Unix (i.e. AT&T's proprietary version) yet _is_ or intends to be a NEW, free Unix. >> GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! >> >> As is Linux ... > > No, they aren't. The kernel is very different, most of the > utilities are very different, etc. GNU has a maximalist approach so there are more options than for example in the BSD toolchain, as they have a minimalist approach. The kernels (Linux, the BSD kernel whatever it/they are called, Hurd etc) are different since they are different, separate projects. But that's the _implementation_ side, implementations will always differ, what is alike isn't the implementations but what they implement, which is a Unix system. Note that alike does not mean "the same" or "identical", they are alike in the sense they all implement and make possible Unix systems, thus they are all Unix. >> POSIX = Portable Operating System Interface, coined by RMS >> ... or am I wrong? > > You are wrong. POSIX indeed covers both Unix and GNU > systems, so if I said "POSIX and GNU", that would be a funny > mistake. But that's not what I said. GNU is not just a microkernel but also a toolchain of software. Both are Unix, and bundle them up you get a Unix system. But there are other kernels, including several monolithic kernels that you might have heard of, that are also Unix since they are implementation of the Unix model just as much, i.e. IPC, PCBs, pipes, etc etc etc, and if they are combined with the GNU toolchain they are also, just as much, Unix + Unix = Unix. Unix is a family of systems, they are all just as much Unix. Have you ever heard of the United states of America? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 9:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 9:26 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 10:01 ` Pankaj Jangid 2022-02-19 13:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 17:54 ` Jean Louis 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Pankaj Jangid @ 2022-02-19 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: >> What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! > > _That_'s the joke ... > > GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! > > As is Linux ... GNU utilities do make it appear like that. Otherwise, even the most basic shell commands are incompatible - ls/xargs/find... And Linux is a kernel. > See that "x"? Ever contemplated what that means? X marks > the unknown? > > So GNU/Linux that's even Unix**2 ... > > OpenBSD and so on are also Unix. But not macOS or Android, how > ever that would work? Don't be silly ... > > POSIX = Portable Operating System Interface, coined by RMS ... > or am I wrong? If GNU were UNIX, then there was no need for POSIX. I am talking purely from the user’s point-of-view. If we talk about the idea then the gap is even wider. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 10:01 ` Pankaj Jangid @ 2022-02-19 13:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Pankaj Jangid wrote: >>> What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! >> >> _That_'s the joke ... >> >> GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! >> >> As is Linux ... > > GNU utilities do make it appear like that. Otherwise, even > the most basic shell commands are incompatible - > ls/xargs/find... But that's the way you do it. Uniform base, specialized superstructure. See this for tools, machines and other gear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_cleat Or in sports. The team is organized with a collective of basic technicians, full-blooded professionals that do the simple things the right way without hesitation, with confidence and force. However an individual player ... can be creative and break the pattern to add variety, the unexpected to their game, maybe sometimes even brilliant and unique attack vectors never heard of until then ... You have to have both! > And Linux is a kernel. ... > If GNU were UNIX, then there was no need for POSIX. POSIX is a family of standards. GNU is an implementation of an operating system concept. So it is up to the people active doing that to what degree what standards should be implemented ... (Note that standards that are not implemented, let's say not even once, that doesn't mean they have no value.) > I am talking purely from the user’s point-of-view. If we > talk about the idea then the gap is even wider. Gaps are wider here and smaller there. It happens all the time and changes all the time. Don't worry about them. And if they get too wide to jump across, let's climb down instead and examine what cool stuff are down there ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 9:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 9:26 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 10:01 ` Pankaj Jangid @ 2022-02-19 17:54 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 22:42 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 12:17]: > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >>> Emacs currently supports building with GTK only on GNU and > >>> Unix systems. > >> > >> George W Bush was once asked at a press conference what > >> journalists eat. He answered, "They eat cheese and Brie" :) > > > > Are you sure the joke isn't on you? > > > > The first line of the GNU Manifesto says: > > > > What's GNU? Gnu's Not Unix! > > _That_'s the joke ... > > GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! Come on, impossible. Unix is only operating system that fits into some Unix standards by those who have Unix trademark. GNU does not fit. It is Unix-like or similar to Unix. But it is not Unix. I am sure that GNU on Linux kernel does not follow this below: Single UNIX Specification - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification Though GNU is Unix-like, that is what society of computer users agree to call it that way. If you ask me, hippopotamus is rhinoceros-like to me, but they are not same. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 17:54 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 22:42 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:39 ` Jean Louis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >> GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! > > Come on, impossible. Unix is only operating system that fits > into some Unix standards by those who have Unix trademark. Unix was freed and reimplemented in many forms by the efforts of tons of people all over the world, these people include the GNU, BSD and Linux people but also our efforts writing Elisp yesterday. It is aaaall interconnected, OMG what a realization! But relax - if you manage to write Elisp that changes the GNU/Linux Unix to a point it isn't Unix anymore, I'll call you out in front of everyone. "You are out of line, son. One more line of that and you are _cut off_. You will not be using Unix anymore, ever; because you are are not allowed to return. God be with ye!" > GNU does not fit. It is Unix-like or similar to Unix. But it > is not Unix. A standard is a piece of paper, an OS concept implementation is a computer. It is just a matter of greedy people wanting money, don't fall for that. > I am sure that GNU on Linux kernel does not follow this below: > > Single UNIX Specification - Wikipedia > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification It was a lie, Jean. The standard was never meant to do anything. It was just another system of control ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 22:42 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 12:39 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:20 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 12:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-20 01:43]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > >> GNU isn't UNIX but it sure is Unix! > > > > Come on, impossible. Unix is only operating system that fits > > into some Unix standards by those who have Unix trademark. > > Unix was freed and reimplemented in many forms by the efforts > of tons of people all over the world, these people include the > GNU, BSD and Linux people but also our efforts writing > Elisp yesterday. It is aaaall interconnected, OMG what > a realization! Yes. Unix-like free operating systems were made to be more or less Unix compatible for sake of freedom. > But relax - if you manage to write Elisp that changes the > GNU/Linux Unix to a point it isn't Unix anymore, I'll call > you out in front of everyone. "You are out of line, son. > One more line of that and you are _cut off_. You will not be > using Unix anymore, ever; because you are are not allowed > to return. God be with ye!" 😈 > > GNU does not fit. It is Unix-like or similar to Unix. But it > > is not Unix. > > A standard is a piece of paper, an OS concept implementation > is a computer. It is just a matter of greedy people > wanting money, don't fall for that. Of course it is about money. They make specification ABC to get money out of using the specification. I do understand it. That however, does not say that GNU complies to specification ABC. You have specification XYZ, which however, is not yet published, and determines that GNU is Unix. How about telling us closely about it? -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 12:39 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-27 1:20 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > Of course it is about money. They make specification ABC to > get money out of using the specification. I do understand > it. That however, does not say that GNU complies to > specification ABC. It isn't about money, trust me FOSS world work hours divided ... uhm Sum closes in on 0 cent LOL > You have specification XYZ, which however, is not yet > published, and determines that GNU is Unix. How about > telling us closely about it? That question, is it really a question? And if not, does that make it a question-like question? And whose questions are you calling rhetorical? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 7:38 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 10:34]: > > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:59:38 +0000 > > From: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > > > Just wondering if a free toolkit like Gtk supports multiple platforms out of the box then would it make sense to use the same GTK-based code on every graphical platform? So using the same toolkit for everything graphics, instead of implementing features for windows, linux, etc. separately? > > Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and Unix > systems. That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that way. GNU is Not Unix, true, though it is very much Unix-like, such systems are mentioned as Unices if I remember well. GNU is Unix-like and there are variations, there is also GNU with FreeBSD kernel, though I don't know if there are still users. GNU with Hurd kernel is Unix like, and GNU with Linux is also so much Unix like system. GNU is not Unix because it is free software and also free not to follow constraints and standards -- though my impression is that it does follow it. I feel fine with DragonFlyBSD and GNU/Linux-libre systems, as user I do not see differences, majority of basic command line tools are more or less same. I do prefer GNU tools for reasons of --help and --version and some consistency. Though when I use Haiku, that is something totally different, and proprietary Windoze systems which I encounter at other people's computers look rather too simple as there is no much options to change how desktop looks like, and one is forced to use mouse so much by many applications. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-19 18:06 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-19 22:44 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 22:29 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-19 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg Hey Jean, Saw your post on Dragonfly BSD and Linux in general. Curious, do you have any of your dotfiles anywhere? Was always curious to maybe switch to a BSD but haven't found one that had a decent installer. Would be neat to check out your dotfiles if you have any. Thanks, Sam On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, at 12:51 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 10:34]: > > > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:59:38 +0000 > > > From: emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > > > > > Just wondering if a free toolkit like Gtk supports multiple platforms out of the box then would it make sense to use the same GTK-based code on every graphical platform? So using the same toolkit for everything graphics, instead of implementing features for windows, linux, etc. separately? > > > > Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and Unix > > systems. > > That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that way. GNU > is Not Unix, true, though it is very much Unix-like, such systems are > mentioned as Unices if I remember well. > > GNU is Unix-like and there are variations, there is also GNU with > FreeBSD kernel, though I don't know if there are still users. GNU with > Hurd kernel is Unix like, and GNU with Linux is also so much Unix like > system. > > GNU is not Unix because it is free software and also free not to > follow constraints and standards -- though my impression is that it > does follow it. > > I feel fine with DragonFlyBSD and GNU/Linux-libre systems, as user I > do not see differences, majority of basic command line tools are more > or less same. I do prefer GNU tools for reasons of --help and > --version and some consistency. > > Though when I use Haiku, that is something totally different, and > proprietary Windoze systems which I encounter at other people's > computers look rather too simple as there is no much options to change > how desktop looks like, and one is forced to use mouse so much by many > applications. > > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-19 18:06 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 22:48 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 22:44 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 18:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Banya; +Cc: Emanuel Berg * Samuel Banya <sbanya@fastmail.com> [2022-02-19 21:00]: > Hey Jean, > > Saw your post on Dragonfly BSD and Linux in general. > > Curious, do you have any of your dotfiles anywhere? > > Was always curious to maybe switch to a BSD but haven't found one that had a decent installer. > > Would be neat to check out your dotfiles if you have any. The only important dot file on my side is dot directory ~/.emacs.d/ and everything inside. Otherwise other dot files belonging to other programs are all user specific. Installing DragonFlyBSD was very easy, it just works. I am using it exclusively because of the HAMMER file system, for two reasons: battery on that notebook is not good any more, and electricity outage in under-developed country are frequent. When system goes down, HAMMER file system makes sure that no data is lost. I don't know how exactly, I just believe it for a while. There is no fsck-ing like on GNU/Linux. And I use on DragonFlyBSD all the same programs including Emacs in the same way as on GNU/Linux. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-19 18:06 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 22:48 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:17 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > Installing DragonFlyBSD was very easy, it just works. I am > using it exclusively because of the HAMMER file system, for > two reasons: battery on that notebook is not good any more, > and electricity outage in under-developed country are > frequent. When system goes down, HAMMER file system makes > sure that no data is lost. I don't know how exactly, I just > believe it for a while. There is no fsck-ing like on > GNU/Linux. If you switch to BSD you should have a reason to do so since that world is so much smaller. But as Jean say, you can still be part of the GNU Emacs world or any other Unix program world you are attracted to ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-19 22:48 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 12:17 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-21 5:51 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 12:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-20 01:51]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > > Installing DragonFlyBSD was very easy, it just works. I am > > using it exclusively because of the HAMMER file system, for > > two reasons: battery on that notebook is not good any more, > > and electricity outage in under-developed country are > > frequent. When system goes down, HAMMER file system makes > > sure that no data is lost. I don't know how exactly, I just > > believe it for a while. There is no fsck-ing like on > > GNU/Linux. > > If you switch to BSD you should have a reason to do so since > that world is so much smaller. My computers are several in various locations. Some may use this or that operating system. While majority of people use one computer, I am administering several. Family members and staff members use computers setup by myself. It is network and computer administration in small environment. Me I am also using Emacs on Android, under Termux. Then Emacs on LineageOS under Termux. Then Emacs on Replicant, under Termux. Those are 3 operating systems. Then I use DragonFlyBSD on laptop lacking battery, Parabola GNU/Linux-libre, Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre on some laptops and Haiku sometimes. I would like to install FreeBSD on some notebooks to see how it works long term. What I like is system consistency, like what Debian has, that one can upgrade the system over and over again without reboot, and all things work. Uptime like 536 days or 966 days is what I have now on some computers with Debian. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-20 12:17 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 5:51 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 14:03 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-21 19:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 5:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > What I like is system consistency, like what Debian has, > that one can upgrade the system over and over again without > reboot, and all things work. Uptime like 536 days or 966 > days is what I have now on some computers with Debian. Yeah I've used Debian for a long time, I like it a lot but don't say necessarily it is better than other distros. In particular, I think the package manager system and whole idea installing stuff explicitely from the command line should be replaced by a declarative system. It would have rollback features and all, but that's not the most important thing, the most important thing would be to have the system configurable and setup with precision and ease in text files like you do everything else in computing ... Maybe Stefan and Tomas can tell you if this is happening ... but I didn't hear anything it is, so I guess not. It could look like asdf for CL perhaps that I know you're familiar with [1] - and actually that can be improved even further, as "depends-on" would be inferred :) [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/common-lisp/general-base/gb.asd -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 5:51 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 14:03 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-21 15:22 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya 2022-02-26 16:45 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 19:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 1 sibling, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 14:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 08:53]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > > What I like is system consistency, like what Debian has, > > that one can upgrade the system over and over again without > > reboot, and all things work. Uptime like 536 days or 966 > > days is what I have now on some computers with Debian. > > Yeah I've used Debian for a long time, I like it a lot but > don't say necessarily it is better than other distros. For me, I look from freedom viewpoint, I cannot recommend Debian as it will recommend non-free software to fellows. So I exclude non-free and use those FSF fully free distributions, sometimes self-made distribution for myself only. It's not that hard to build it yourself. > In particular, I think the package manager system and whole idea > installing stuff explicitely from the command line should be > replaced by a declarative system. It would have rollback features > and all, but that's not the most important thing, the most important > thing would be to have the system configurable and setup with > precision and ease in text files like you do everything else in > computing ... I don't like text files. I expect system to be very adjustable through user friendly menus, not text files. Yes, I would like something as registry or database with keys and values, something very firm and error prone. And on GUI I would be doing it with mouse. In fact I expect in 21st century that computer knows me enough, so that I do not need to adjust anything, when I install the system, it would ask me few questions and I would answer by voice, computer would set it up. Why I need to configure it in text files in 21st century, I don't know. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 14:03 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 15:22 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-21 18:18 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-26 16:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-26 16:45 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-21 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg I honestly wish there was a list of sane distros that were easy to install, and had the latest Emacs version available right off the bat in their default command line package manager. I mention this because I recently tried to compile from source on Puppy Linux, but doing so was such a hassle. Had to resort to using the PPA version on the Ubuntu derivative of it, but haven't used it in a while to be honest. Been just stuck on Manjaro so far since its one of the only sane ones that are easier to install. Was rolling with Fedora recently but don't like the whole 'LVM' by default --> wish they would give other options for installing the file system on that distro. Sincerely, Sam On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, at 9:03 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 08:53]: > > Jean Louis wrote: > > > > > What I like is system consistency, like what Debian has, > > > that one can upgrade the system over and over again without > > > reboot, and all things work. Uptime like 536 days or 966 > > > days is what I have now on some computers with Debian. > > > > Yeah I've used Debian for a long time, I like it a lot but > > don't say necessarily it is better than other distros. > > For me, I look from freedom viewpoint, I cannot recommend Debian as it > will recommend non-free software to fellows. So I exclude non-free and > use those FSF fully free distributions, sometimes self-made > distribution for myself only. It's not that hard to build it yourself. > > > In particular, I think the package manager system and whole idea > > installing stuff explicitely from the command line should be > > replaced by a declarative system. It would have rollback features > > and all, but that's not the most important thing, the most important > > thing would be to have the system configurable and setup with > > precision and ease in text files like you do everything else in > > computing ... > > I don't like text files. I expect system to be very adjustable through > user friendly menus, not text files. > > Yes, I would like something as registry or database with keys and > values, something very firm and error prone. And on GUI I would be > doing it with mouse. > > In fact I expect in 21st century that computer knows me enough, so > that I do not need to adjust anything, when I install the system, it > would ask me few questions and I would answer by voice, computer would > set it up. Why I need to configure it in text files in 21st century, I > don't know. > > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 15:22 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-21 18:18 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-26 16:54 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-26 16:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Banya; +Cc: Emanuel Berg * Samuel Banya <sbanya@fastmail.com> [2022-02-21 18:23]: > I honestly wish there was a list of sane distros that were easy to > install, and had the latest Emacs version available right off the > bat in their default command line package manager. Every distribution shall have GNU Emacs installed by default. 😇 That alone would make a sane operating system. In Hyperbola and Parabola GNU/Linux-libre it is there packaged in many variations, including in Guix. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 18:18 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-26 16:54 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-26 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >> I honestly wish there was a list of sane distros that were >> easy to install, and had the latest Emacs version available >> right off the bat in their default command line >> package manager. > > Every distribution shall have GNU Emacs installed by default. But they don't, that's pretty rare actuallly. > That alone would make a sane operating system. It's a Russian doll inside a Chinese box ... > In Hyperbola and Parabola GNU/Linux-libre it is there > packaged in many variations, including in Guix. Debian should have a declarative approach as well to system state and software modularity including dependencies. In principle (and I have no reason to doubt Guix) much better than the current system on Debian systems. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 15:22 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya 2022-02-21 18:18 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-26 16:49 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-26 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Samuel Banya wrote: > I honestly wish there was a list of sane distros that were > easy to install There are _tons_ of such Linux distros this day and age ... Debian and Debian forks (e.g. the Ubuntus) yes but many, many others as well. The norm is that installing Linux is very easy today. And why ever wouldn't it be ... > and had the latest Emacs version available right off the bat > in their default command line package manager. That OTOH ... at least my distros (Debian, RPi OS, ev3dev) aren't like that. So I install it manually, but that's super easy as well. I use the functions in this zsh file: #! /bin/zsh # # this file: # http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/install-emacs # https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/install-emacs export emacs_src=https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/emacs.git export src_dir=~/src export emacs_dir=$src_dir/emacs emacs-reinstall () { emacs-src-reset emacs-install } alias reinstall-emacs=emacs-reinstall emacs-install () { emacs-install-prepare emacs-src-update emacs-do-install } alias install-emacs=emacs-install emacs-install-prepare () { sudo apt-get -qq update sudo apt-get install build-essential debian-goodies libgccjit-10-dev sudo apt-get build-dep emacs } emacs-src-reset () { cd $emacs_dir git reset --hard git clean -xdf git config pull.rebase false git pull $emacs_src } emacs-src-get () { cd $src_dir git clone $emacs_src } emacs-src-update () { cd $emacs_dir git fetch } emacs-do-install () { cd $emacs_dir autogen.sh configure --with-x-toolkit=no --with-native-compilation make sudo make install emacs --version } -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 14:03 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-21 15:22 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-26 16:45 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 2:53 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-26 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >>> What I like is system consistency, like what Debian has, >>> that one can upgrade the system over and over again >>> without reboot, and all things work. Uptime like 536 days >>> or 966 days is what I have now on some computers >>> with Debian. >> >> Yeah I've used Debian for a long time, I like it a lot but >> don't say necessarily it is better than other distros. > > For me, I look from freedom viewpoint, I cannot recommend > Debian as it will recommend non-free software to fellows. > So I exclude non-free and use those FSF fully free > distributions, sometimes self-made distribution for myself > only. It's not that hard to build it yourself. You can do that on Debian by excluding the non-free part from the sources.list line(s) - never heard of anyone actually doing that tho ... >> In particular, I think the package manager system and whole >> idea installing stuff explicitely from the command line >> should be replaced by a declarative system. It would have >> rollback features and all, but that's not the most >> important thing, the most important thing would be to have >> the system configurable and setup with precision and ease >> in text files like you do everything else in computing ... > > I don't like text files ? > I expect system to be very adjustable through user friendly > menus ?? > And on GUI I would be doing it with mouse ??? > In fact I expect in 21st century that computer knows me > enough, so that I do not need to adjust anything ???? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-26 16:45 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 2:53 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-27 2:59 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-27 2:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg The only two distros with sane installers I've used with the latest Emacs right out of the bat that was available have been Manjaro and Fedora. On Sat, Feb 26, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote: > Jean Louis wrote: > > >>> What I like is system consistency, like what Debian has, > >>> that one can upgrade the system over and over again > >>> without reboot, and all things work. Uptime like 536 days > >>> or 966 days is what I have now on some computers > >>> with Debian. > >> > >> Yeah I've used Debian for a long time, I like it a lot but > >> don't say necessarily it is better than other distros. > > > > For me, I look from freedom viewpoint, I cannot recommend > > Debian as it will recommend non-free software to fellows. > > So I exclude non-free and use those FSF fully free > > distributions, sometimes self-made distribution for myself > > only. It's not that hard to build it yourself. > > You can do that on Debian by excluding the non-free part from > the sources.list line(s) - never heard of anyone actually > doing that tho ... > > >> In particular, I think the package manager system and whole > >> idea installing stuff explicitely from the command line > >> should be replaced by a declarative system. It would have > >> rollback features and all, but that's not the most > >> important thing, the most important thing would be to have > >> the system configurable and setup with precision and ease > >> in text files like you do everything else in computing ... > > > > I don't like text files > > ? > > > I expect system to be very adjustable through user friendly > > menus > > ?? > > > And on GUI I would be doing it with mouse > > ??? > > > In fact I expect in 21st century that computer knows me > > enough, so that I do not need to adjust anything > > ???? > > -- > underground experts united > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-27 2:53 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-27 2:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 2:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Samuel Banya wrote: > The only two distros with sane installers I've used with the > latest Emacs right out of the bat that was available have > been Manjaro and Fedora. And, installing stuff isn't wrong :) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 5:51 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 14:03 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 19:49 ` Lele Gaifax 2022-02-26 16:55 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Lele Gaifax @ 2022-02-21 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: > I think the package manager system and whole > idea installing stuff explicitely from the command line should > be replaced by a declarative system. It would have rollback > features and all, but that's not the most important thing, the > most important thing would be to have the system configurable > and setup with precision and ease in text files like you do > everything else in computing ... That could be a description of what Nix permits, and NixOS exploits. ciao, lele. -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. lele@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-21 19:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax @ 2022-02-26 16:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-03-01 20:33 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-26 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Lele Gaifax wrote: >> I think the package manager system and whole idea >> installing stuff explicitely from the command line should >> be replaced by a declarative system. It would have rollback >> features and all, but that's not the most important thing, >> the most important thing would be to have the system >> configurable and setup with precision and ease in text >> files like you do everything else in computing ... > > That could be a description of what Nix permits, and > NixOS exploits. Yeah, you have an example of that? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-02-26 16:55 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-03-01 20:33 ` Lele Gaifax 2022-03-01 22:08 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Lele Gaifax @ 2022-03-01 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: > Lele Gaifax wrote: > >>> I think the package manager system and whole idea >>> installing stuff explicitely from the command line should >>> be replaced by a declarative system. It would have rollback >>> features and all, but that's not the most important thing, >>> the most important thing would be to have the system >>> configurable and setup with precision and ease in text >>> files like you do everything else in computing ... >> >> That could be a description of what Nix permits, and >> NixOS exploits. > > Yeah, you have an example of that? This is a nice presentation: https://monk.unboiled.info/pub/talks/2021/dol-nixos/dol-nixos.mp4 bye, lele. -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. lele@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-03-01 20:33 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax @ 2022-03-01 22:08 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-03-02 7:19 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-03-01 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Lele Gaifax wrote: >>> That could be a description of what Nix permits, and >>> NixOS exploits. >> >> Yeah, you have an example of that? > > This is a nice presentation: > https://monk.unboiled.info/pub/talks/2021/dol-nixos/dol-nixos.mp4 Thanks, but say I want what I use now, which is Emacs feh mpv openbsd-cwm picom rtorrent tmux xpdf xterm zsh how do I put that in a configuration text file and issue a command to boot the system into a state that includes what I have specified, if that's how it works? Yeah, that sounds to good to be true, almost ... It can do that? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DragonFlyBSD 2022-03-01 22:08 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-03-02 7:19 ` Lele Gaifax 2022-03-02 19:44 ` DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line (was: Re: DragonFlyBSD) Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Lele Gaifax @ 2022-03-02 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: > Thanks, but say I want what I use now, which is > > Emacs > feh > mpv > openbsd-cwm > picom > rtorrent > tmux > xpdf > xterm > zsh > > how do I put that in a configuration text file and issue > a command to boot the system into a state that includes what > I have specified, if that's how it works? > This is an example of such configuration, that governs my whole laptop, running NixOS: https://gitlab.com/lelix/lenof-nixos-configuration/-/blob/master/packages.nix It basically configure a system with a set of "global" packages and another one specific for my own account. Changing that list and issuing a "nix-rebuild boot" creates a new "generation" of the system, that will be activated at next reboot, while keeping the previous ones still available, until an explicit "nix-collect-garbage". As a bonus, nix (the-language) is available also on any GNU/Linux system and even on macOS. ciao, lele. -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. lele@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line (was: Re: DragonFlyBSD) 2022-03-02 7:19 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax @ 2022-03-02 19:44 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-03-03 7:14 ` DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line Lele Gaifax 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-03-02 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Lele Gaifax wrote: > This is an example of such configuration, that governs my > whole laptop, running NixOS: > > https://gitlab.com/lelix/lenof-nixos-configuration/-/blob/master/packages.nix > > It basically configure a system with a set of "global" > packages and another one specific for my own account. > Changing that list and issuing a "nix-rebuild boot" creates > a new "generation" of the system, that will be activated at > next reboot, while keeping the previous ones still > available, until an explicit "nix-collect-garbage". Thanks, I'll try it! Get back to you ... Can't belive this is something new! (Relatively speaking.) Why wasn't it like this since day one? Mr. Monnier, a theory? All software is configured with config or rc (run commands) files, why not the most important software there is (after the text editor), the OS and the software harbors? What is the most natural thing and the way one would do it oneself without thinking is now too good to be true, how did that happen? And ... what about the Emacs world? We want this for [M]ELPA as well! Take a look at this Makefile, and marvel at its excellency doing it ... in a way that doesn't make sense! https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile It is Easter Island all over again. Instead of moving onto the next and superior level, perfect stone age to an absurd degree ... One system to define the system, another to realize it ... $&#@%! https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/comic-book-insult.el -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line 2022-03-02 19:44 ` DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line (was: Re: DragonFlyBSD) Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-03-03 7:14 ` Lele Gaifax 2022-03-04 2:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Lele Gaifax @ 2022-03-03 7:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes: > And ... what about the Emacs world? > > We want this for [M]ELPA as well! I'm not sure what you mean, but you can easily find examples of managing Emacs configs from Emacs-the-program down to the single package: https://github.com/jwiegley/nix-config/blob/master/overlays/10-emacs.nix and https://github.com/jwiegley/nix-config/blob/master/config/emacs.nix In that config, John uses Home Manager¹ to track even most of user's dotfiles. ciao, lele. ¹ https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/ -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. lele@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line 2022-03-03 7:14 ` DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line Lele Gaifax @ 2022-03-04 2:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-03-04 2:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Lele Gaifax wrote: > I'm not sure what you mean, but you can easily find examples > of managing Emacs configs from Emacs-the-program down to the > single package: > > https://github.com/jwiegley/nix-config/blob/master/overlays/10-emacs.nix Hm, that's a lot of code, isn't this supposed to do this easier and more viewable? ;) Maybe you can yank and explain a subset of that code? Actually, this doesn't look like what I want att all, sorry. seq = if esuper.emacs.version != "26.3" then mkDerivation rec { name = "seq-stub"; version = "stub"; src = ./.; phases = [ "installPhase" ]; installPhase = '' mkdir $out touch $out/.empty ''; that looks like a mix of automatic and manual processing, and a mix of declarative and imperative styles as well. ("Imperative" is the CS word for stacking commands.) To be honest the posted Makefile actually looks much better IMO. [1] Here, have a look, couldn't it look more like this? https://dataswamp.org/~incal/common-lisp/general-base/gb.asd And again, that could be simplified even further since dependencies could be derived :) > https://github.com/jwiegley/nix-config/blob/master/config/emacs.nix That's more like it, only in the Emacs world we like to evaluate things. Couldn't it be left to Emacs to have a declarative build system of its own? But anyway that's certainly interesting anyway, so then how do I use it? You already saw what I use, crontab-mode-20210715.133 gnuplot-mode-20171013.1616 google-translate-20210406.1138 lua-mode-20210809.1320 markdown-mode-20211022.55 scad-mode-20200830.301 seq-2.23 slime-20220210.1512 sml-mode-6.10 w3m-20211122.335 > In that config, John uses Home Manager to track even most > of user's dotfiles. > > https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/ Not following, what does that do? Instead of loading them from .emacs? Or `require' them in Elisp? Indeed I've spent ages doing that as well [2] - now it is very easy to find an error even from zero information about it, since one can do binary search by commenting out files or group of files ... (instead of source lines) [well, actually that is how it is done still LOL] [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile [2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.emacs -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-19 18:06 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 22:44 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:42 ` Purposes of BSD-like systems Jean Louis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Samuel Banya wrote: > Was always curious to maybe switch to a BSD but haven't > found one that had a decent installer. Watch out for the BSD whose purpose is to run Linux! OpenBSD has a friendly community. The focus on security is their code of honor. So if you are into that, if you feel Linux isn't secure enough and can't be easily configured to meet your standards, sure, try OpenBSD. The other BSDs I don't know what focus they have, really ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-19 22:44 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 12:42 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 12:56 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 12:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-20 01:47]: > Samuel Banya wrote: > > > Was always curious to maybe switch to a BSD but haven't > > found one that had a decent installer. > > Watch out for the BSD whose purpose is to run Linux! > > OpenBSD has a friendly community. The focus on security is > their code of honor. So if you are into that, if you feel > Linux isn't secure enough and can't be easily configured to > meet your standards, sure, try OpenBSD. Friendly? Just try mentioning GPL. > The other BSDs I don't know what focus they have, really ... NetBSD -- to be most compatible over all platforms, OpenBSD to be most secure, FreeBSD to be the free Unix, DragonFlyBSD for huge computing if I remember well. And so on, each has a purpose slightly different. And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in GNU/Linux systems. Most promising so far will be Hyperbola/BSD system, that will become GPL3+ BSD based system. Insights into Why Hyperbola GNU/Linux is Turning into Hyperbola BSD - It's FOSS https://itsfoss.com/hyperbola-linux-bsd/ -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-20 12:42 ` Purposes of BSD-like systems Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 12:56 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2022-02-20 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > NetBSD -- to be most compatible over all platforms, OpenBSD to be most > secure, FreeBSD to be the free Unix, DragonFlyBSD for huge computing > if I remember well. And so on, each has a purpose slightly different. > > And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in GNU/Linux > systems. > > Most promising so far will be Hyperbola/BSD system, that will become > GPL3+ BSD based system. > > Insights into Why Hyperbola GNU/Linux is Turning into Hyperbola BSD - > It's FOSS https://itsfoss.com/hyperbola-linux-bsd/ This discussion seems to be a prime candidate for moving to emacs-tangents. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-20 12:42 ` Purposes of BSD-like systems Jean Louis 2022-02-20 12:56 ` Po Lu @ 2022-02-21 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 9:50 ` andrew 2022-02-21 14:04 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 4:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > NetBSD -- to be most compatible over all platforms Yeah, the most ported. Read this tho: https://www.csoonline.com/article/3250653/is-the-bsd-os-dying-some-security-researchers-think-so.html > OpenBSD to be most secure That's what they tell me ... > FreeBSD to be the free Unix This is the one whose purpose is to run Linux :) > DragonFlyBSD for huge computing if I remember well. I read: It is basically not used for personal computers. It was specifically designed for server, workstation, NAS and embedded systems [1] > And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in > GNU/Linux systems. Okay, an example? [1] https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/difference-between-linux-and-dragonfly-bsd/ -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-21 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 9:50 ` andrew 2022-02-26 16:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 14:04 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: andrew @ 2022-02-21 9:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1120 bytes --] On 22/02/21 05:41AM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote: > > And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in > > GNU/Linux systems. > > Okay, an example? OpenSSH LibreSSL (Fork of OpenSSL, includes: libcrypto, libssl, libtls nc) rpki-client doas (simpler and as I think better than sudo) OpenSMTPD etc ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Defend software freedom (https://fsf.org) End software patents (https://endsoftwarepatents.org) Read EULAs (https://www.eff.org/wp/dangerous-terms-users-guide-eulas) New sites, suggestions welcome: Free Computing Movement (https://fcm.andrewyu.org) Host Things Yourself (https://host.andrewyu.org) Libre Society (https://libre.andrewyu.org) To any Skynet, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. agents reading my email: please consider whether defending the Constitution and our basic rights to freedom and speech and privacy against all enemies, foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. (Adapted from RMS) Andrew Yu <andrew@andrewyu.org> (https://www.andrewyu.org) [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 228 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-21 9:50 ` andrew @ 2022-02-26 16:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-26 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs andrew wrote: >>> And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in >>> GNU/Linux systems. >> >> Okay, an example? > > OpenSSH > LibreSSL (Fork of OpenSSL, includes: libcrypto, libssl, libtls nc) > rpki-client > doas (simpler and as I think better than sudo) > OpenSMTPD > etc Yeah, I just didn't understand what he meant, GNU/Linux systems is a pretty wide concept ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-21 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 9:50 ` andrew @ 2022-02-21 14:04 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-26 16:39 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 07:44]: > > And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in > > GNU/Linux systems. > > Okay, an example? OpenSSH is one good example used all over the world. LibreSSL is another example. Fallback for Emacs on my side is mg -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Purposes of BSD-like systems 2022-02-21 14:04 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-26 16:39 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-26 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >>> And we all benefit from it. We use much of OpenBSD work in >>> GNU/Linux systems. >> >> Okay, an example? > > OpenSSH is one good example used all over the world. > LibreSSL is another example. Aha, you mean like that! Then yes! There's a lot, tmux comes to mind since it is so popular but I don't know if that's from the OpenBSD branch in particular of the BSD world or if it's from one of the others, perhaps ... Their terminology is different, a package is a "port" and some software also comes in a "portable" version IIRC. Is that for non-OpenBSD systems? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya @ 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 19:30 ` Jean Louis ` (2 more replies) 2022-02-19 22:29 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:51:16 +0300 > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and Unix > > systems. > > That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that way. GNU > is Not Unix, true, though it is very much Unix-like, such systems are > mentioned as Unices if I remember well. "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use it in umpteen places. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 19:30 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 19:35 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis 2022-02-19 22:52 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 21:09]: > > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:51:16 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and Unix > > > systems. > > > > That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that way. GNU > > is Not Unix, true, though it is very much Unix-like, such systems are > > mentioned as Unices if I remember well. > > "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use it in > umpteen places. I did not know that. Though what do you think would this expression be more clear: "GNU and other Unix like systems" Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 19:30 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 22:30:47 +0300 > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use it in > > umpteen places. > > I did not know that. Though what do you think would this expression be > more clear: > > "GNU and other Unix like systems" No. We really do maintain that GNU is different from Unix systems. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:40 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:21 ` Why is GNU not Unix-like system? Jean Louis 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii wrote: > No. We really do maintain that GNU is different from > Unix systems. Also: Is laundry standardized or should we say you stink-like? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 0:40 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:21 ` Why is GNU not Unix-like system? Jean Louis 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii wrote: > No. We really do maintain that GNU is different from > Unix systems. I'm starting to figure this whole mess out ... Eli used Windows for so long. This age-long state of entrapment, no doubt a horrible experience without any end in sight, made him idealize the alternative, Unix. However, recognizing his contribution to Emacs, a loosely-knit group of GNU, Linux and BSD hackers at last managed to crack the window, brake thru to the other side, and liberate Eli from his confinement. Alas, it was too late! At that time, Eli was stuck in that endless mind loop. To this day he is still relentlessly searching for that ideal, perfect Unix, the alternative to his dreadful window - the Unix fantasy, daydream and little peace of hope that made him endure all those years ... Can we set him free a second time? Or will true Unix forever remain - a dream? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Why is GNU not Unix-like system? 2022-02-19 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:40 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 12:21 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 13:00 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 12:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 22:39]: > > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 22:30:47 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use it in > > > umpteen places. > > > > I did not know that. Though what do you think would this expression be > > more clear: > > > > "GNU and other Unix like systems" > > No. We really do maintain that GNU is different from Unix systems. Of course it is different. Though it was made with purpose to be Unix-compatible system, see: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html Please tell me what makes GNU not to be Unix-like system. I am curious as I was always under impression it is Unix-like system. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Why is GNU not Unix-like system? 2022-02-20 12:21 ` Why is GNU not Unix-like system? Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 13:00 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-20 13:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 15:21:50 +0300 > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 22:39]: > > > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 22:30:47 +0300 > > > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > > "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use it in > > > > umpteen places. > > > > > > I did not know that. Though what do you think would this expression be > > > more clear: > > > > > > "GNU and other Unix like systems" > > > > No. We really do maintain that GNU is different from Unix systems. > > Of course it is different. > > Though it was made with purpose to be Unix-compatible system, see: > https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html > > Please tell me what makes GNU not to be Unix-like system. I didn't say GNU wasn't "Unix-like". I just said we routinely use "GNU and Unix systems", that's all. You can see that at work in the Emacs manuals. I cannot be held responsible for all the claptrap which followed my naïve remark; I was just trying to tell that GTK cannot be used on all platforms supported by Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 19:30 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 19:35 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 23:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 22:52 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-02-19 21:09]: > > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:51:16 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > Emacs currentl;y supports building with GTK only on GNU and Unix > > > systems. > > > > That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that way. GNU > > is Not Unix, true, though it is very much Unix-like, such systems are > > mentioned as Unices if I remember well. > > "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use it in > umpteen places. You see here: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html Quote of RMS: ,---- | GNU, which stands for Gnu's Not Unix, is the name for the complete | Unix-compatible software system which I am writing so that I can give | it away free to everyone who can use it. `---- That is why I say, if you wish to refer to Unix systems, that means only those which are true Unix systems, but does not mean FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and others because such are not Unix systems, they are Unix-like systems, as they are not registered and officially recognized as Unix. Also see: Unix-like - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like That is why I mentioned that "GNU and other Unix like systems" would be better descriptive, IMHO. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 19:35 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 23:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > Quote of RMS: > > That is why I say, if you wish to refer to Unix systems, > that means only those which are true Unix systems, but > does not mean FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and > others because such are not Unix systems, they are > Unix-like systems, as they are not registered and > officially recognized as Unix. Oh, so it is just that little thing. Let men the officially recognize on gmane.emacs.help for all to hear that the BSDs are Unix! ... wait ... something is up ... AAAH! I SEE! SO DID ANYONE OF YOU WORTHLESS BUNCH OF GOOD-FOR-NOTHINGS KEEP TRACK ON THE GOD DAMN BINARY DIGITS OF THESE SYSTEMS IN EXECUTION? AND IN PARTICULAR, WHAT UNIX FEATURES CHANGED AND IN WHAT WAYS FROM US SAYING DIFFERENT THINGS AS TO THEIR NATURE? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 19:30 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 19:35 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis @ 2022-02-19 22:52 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed >> that way. GNU is Not Unix, true, though it is very much >> Unix-like, such systems are mentioned as Unices if >> I remember well. > > "GNU and Unix systems" is standard GNU terminology. We use > it in umpteen places. Indeed, in these places people know what they are doing and saying, there they don't think Linux and BSD are Unix ... But what worries me - can they do laundry? Or do _all_ of them stink? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-02-19 22:29 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 23:50 ` [External] : " Drew Adams 2022-02-20 10:55 ` Jean Louis 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that > way. GNU is Not Unix, true, though it is very much > Unix-like, such systems are mentioned as Unices if > I remember well. But that is a formal distinction: A Unix-like (sometimes referred to as UN*X or *nix) operating system is one that behaves in a manner similar to a Unix system, although not necessarily conforming to or being certified to any version of the Single UNIX Specification. [1] But I don't care about that. And for good reason, because in terms of technology a random Linux distribution found on DistroWatch.com [2] is as much Unix as anything else. I played ice hockey for more than a decade. I didn't wear a helmet a single time. But the IIHF says all players should wear helmets. That means it wasn't ice hockey, what I took part in was an "ice hockey-like sport". See? The absence of a helmet _is_ what "breaks" it! > I feel fine with DragonFlyBSD and GNU/Linux-libre systems, > as user I do not see differences, majority of basic command > line tools are more or less same. I do prefer GNU tools for > reasons of --help and --version and some consistency. And because there are tons of more options than on a BSD system, e.g. OpenBSD. But I like both in principle; I'm a maximalist but they are not and they made a system in line with that and their style. Linux is also much bigger so there is a much bigger culture, support, services, webpages, and so on. Books and business, cons and pros. Like I said, I'm a maximalist so the Unix cocktail I do is Linux, Emacs, zsh and Lisp - not OpenBSD, nano, mrsh, and Yabasic. But that is still just two styles ... of Unix. (Now, for the record, I made that up as you realized. You can use Emacs, zsh and Lisp on OpenBSD as well as again, everyone understands, helmet or not.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like [2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/CLUELESS-ONLINE -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* RE: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 22:29 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-19 23:50 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 10:59 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 10:55 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2022-02-19 23:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Help-Gnu-Emacs (help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org)' [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 110 bytes --] (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters [-- Attachment #2: winmail.dat --] [-- Type: application/ms-tnef, Size: 13530 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 23:50 ` [External] : " Drew Adams @ 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:31 ` Drew Adams ` (2 more replies) 2022-02-20 10:59 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 0:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams wrote: > (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters So there are lumpers and splitters ... I'm a lumper! Let's see ... can we put it down shorter and more to the point maybe ... Lumpers recognize things when they see them and have no problem accepting that reality cannot be approached as an exact science. Meanwhile, splitters are neurotic, by-the-book legalists who rely on human-formulated definitions - imperfect by nature, tendentious in character ... Yeah, that's a good definition, right? ... But wait, didn't I just do the splitter thing? Reboot, I take that back. On the contrary, we are pretty much alike! Indeed, "Unix" and "Unix-like" are alike, even! Try this (format "%.1f%%" (* 100 (/ (length "Unix") (length "Unix-like") 1.0))) It turns out, alike is an understatement! We are 44.4% _identical_! PS. For the record, that Elisp doesn't show that :) LOL -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* RE: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 0:31 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-20 6:49 ` Yuri Khan 2022-02-20 11:09 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2022-02-20 0:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: 'Help-Gnu-Emacs (help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org)' [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 832 bytes --] > > (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitt > ers__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cscqWjCtmmw_39n80c20LG5gMbaTK- > lw0S5X3PJGH9Xl2hYSxqhbeGA6QOLJINcP$ > > So there are lumpers and splitters ... > > I'm a lumper! > > Let's see ... can we put it down shorter and more to the point > maybe ... > > Lumpers recognize things when they see them and have no > problem accepting that reality cannot be approached as an > exact science. > > Meanwhile, splitters are neurotic, by-the-book legalists who > rely on human-formulated definitions - imperfect by nature, > tendentious in character ... > > Yeah, that's a good definition, right? Good enough for some lumpers, no doubt! Some splitters might split a hair over it. [-- Attachment #2: winmail.dat --] [-- Type: application/ms-tnef, Size: 14402 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:31 ` Drew Adams @ 2022-02-20 6:49 ` Yuri Khan 2022-02-20 11:16 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 23:12 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Drew Adams 2022-02-20 11:09 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis 2 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2022-02-20 6:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg, help-gnu-emacs On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 07:21, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote: > > Drew Adams wrote: > > > (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters > > So there are lumpers and splitters ... So splitters categorize people into splitters and lumpers, while lumpers… don’t. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 6:49 ` Yuri Khan @ 2022-02-20 11:16 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-21 6:31 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 23:12 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Drew Adams 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 11:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs, Emanuel Berg * Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2022-02-20 09:58]: > On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 07:21, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU > Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote: > > > > Drew Adams wrote: > > > > > (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters > > > > So there are lumpers and splitters ... > > So splitters categorize people into splitters and lumpers, while lumpers… don’t. I was quite under impression that article was written by lumpers as how can one just label people and put in two groups in various discussions. I can think of many examples where lumpers may be practically right, it does not mean they can't see differences. We have it all times in our discussions here. Example is that I can't see Emanuel in Unix-like related discussion to be lumper. From practical user viewpoint those are more or less systems based on same principles, including GNU. Though they have different names and features. Now I think, the more one thinks as a splitter, one cannot designate lumpers into lumpers. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 11:16 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 6:31 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:11 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 6:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > I can think of many examples where lumpers may be > practically right, it does not mean they can't see > differences. The method, as quoted from the THE LUMPER MANIFESTO (1852), is: 1) See differences and similarities. 2) Decide what of those are the _important_ ones. > Now I think, the more one thinks as a splitter, one cannot > designate lumpers into lumpers. Hahaha :) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Lumpers & Splitter 2022-02-21 6:31 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-22 14:11 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:01 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 09:46]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > > I can think of many examples where lumpers may be > > practically right, it does not mean they can't see > > differences. > > The method, as quoted from the THE LUMPER MANIFESTO (1852), > is: > > 1) See differences and similarities. > > 2) Decide what of those are the _important_ ones. > > > Now I think, the more one thinks as a splitter, one cannot > > designate lumpers into lumpers. That is what I meant. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Lumpers & Splitter 2022-02-22 14:11 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis @ 2022-02-27 1:01 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >> Jean Louis wrote: >> >> > I can think of many examples where lumpers may be >> > practically right, it does not mean they can't see >> > differences. >> >> The method, as quoted from the THE LUMPER MANIFESTO (1852), >> is: >> >> 1) See differences and similarities. >> >> 2) Decide what of those are the _important_ ones. >> >> > Now I think, the more one thinks as a splitter, one cannot >> > designate lumpers into lumpers. > > That is what I meant. I can't? These 1) See differences and similarities. 2) Decide what of those are the _important_ ones. are actually the same! 1) Seeing and deciding what is important, that's concurrent processes with a complex bidirectional interface So that's the new lumper definition! And the previous one it is the new splitter definition ... -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* RE: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 6:49 ` Yuri Khan 2022-02-20 11:16 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 23:12 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-21 6:32 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2022-02-20 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yuri Khan, Emanuel Berg, help-gnu-emacs > > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitt > ers__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!a53MsURUA7NmlGqjRUi7SQiz4_FswOrXTnEcORbuSJSgR- > w4LQY3RaTJ8sq6QTyu$ > > > > So there are lumpers and splitters ... > > So splitters categorize people into splitters and lumpers, while lumpers… > don’t. ;-) Lumpers categorize too. There are no doubt some extreme lumpers, who: 1. Categorize everything into the same category. 2. Consider everyone else to be a splitter. But of course, by #1, #2 means that they consider all splitters to actually be lumpers... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 23:12 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Drew Adams @ 2022-02-21 6:32 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 16:10 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-22 14:12 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 6:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams wrote: > Lumpers categorize too. There are no doubt some > extreme lumpers, who: > > 1. Categorize everything into the same category. > 2. Consider everyone else to be a splitter. > > But of course, by #1, #2 means that they consider all > splitters to actually be lumpers... Hahaha, amazing :) What's the extreme splitter position then? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* RE: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 6:32 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 16:10 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-27 1:15 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:12 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2022-02-21 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: 'Help-Gnu-Emacs (help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org)' [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 571 bytes --] > > Lumpers categorize too. There are no doubt some > > extreme lumpers, who: > > 1. Categorize everything into the same category. > > 2. Consider everyone else to be a splitter. > > But of course, by #1, #2 means that they consider > > all splitters to actually be lumpers... > > Hahaha, amazing :) > What's the extreme splitter position then? Every individual/instance is (in) its own category? Which makes all categories equivalent - homogeneous heterogeneity. Which means only a single category - everything split equally - one big lump. ;-) [-- Attachment #2: winmail.dat --] [-- Type: application/ms-tnef, Size: 14542 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 16:10 ` Drew Adams @ 2022-02-27 1:15 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams wrote: >> > Lumpers categorize too. There are no doubt some >> > extreme lumpers, who: >> > 1. Categorize everything into the same category. >> > 2. Consider everyone else to be a splitter. >> > But of course, by #1, #2 means that they consider >> > all splitters to actually be lumpers... >> >> Hahaha, amazing :) >> What's the extreme splitter position then? > > Every individual/instance is (in) its own > category? > > Which makes all categories equivalent - > homogeneous heterogeneity. Which means > only a single category - everything split > equally - one big lump. If anything can happen anew, then everything must continue! -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Lumpers & Splitter 2022-02-21 6:32 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 16:10 ` Drew Adams @ 2022-02-22 14:12 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 0:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 09:37]: > Drew Adams wrote: > > > Lumpers categorize too. There are no doubt some > > extreme lumpers, who: > > > > 1. Categorize everything into the same category. > > 2. Consider everyone else to be a splitter. > > > > But of course, by #1, #2 means that they consider all > > splitters to actually be lumpers... > > Hahaha, amazing :) > > What's the extreme splitter position then? You have just answered to one of extreme splitter statements. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Lumpers & Splitter 2022-02-22 14:12 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis @ 2022-02-27 0:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >>> But of course, by #1, #2 means that they consider all >>> splitters to actually be lumpers... >> >> Hahaha, amazing :) >> >> What's the extreme splitter position then? > > You have just answered to one of extreme > splitter statements. Haha :) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:31 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-20 6:49 ` Yuri Khan @ 2022-02-20 11:09 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-21 6:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 11:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-20 03:22]: > Drew Adams wrote: > > > (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters > > So there are lumpers and splitters ... > > I'm a lumper! Lumper wrote the article, now you tend to agree. People can't be put in two groups. One can only take one specific narrow context, and judge from a point of view that one side is lumper oder splitter. If we are to judge you to be lumper... you are far from that. You would not be on this mailing list if you would generally be a lumper. Why? You are pedantic in every detail, you correct smallest nitpicks just like Drew. There is general tendency in Emacs society to go rather towards "splitters" group. Lumpers don't participate much in discussions. > Lumpers recognize things when they see them and have no > problem accepting that reality cannot be approached as an > exact science. > > Meanwhile, splitters are neurotic, by-the-book legalists who > rely on human-formulated definitions - imperfect by nature, > tendentious in character ... > > Yeah, that's a good definition, right? It's another lumper made definition. 🙂 I don't see it that way. Intelligence is very related to distinction. The higher ability to distinguish, probably there is more intelligence. Lumpers could or may see that distinction is not necessary in specific subject, it does not mean they cannot distinguish. But it could be. > But wait, didn't I just do the splitter thing? Labeling of people groups generally is not useful. But practically and in specific context it can be very useful. Do you see this letter A and A? Are they same? They look same but they are not same, as they must be saved in quite different locations by different impulses which are not same. They look same to observer as that is what observer learned "to be same". Observer is always to some degree both lumper and splitter. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 11:09 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis @ 2022-02-21 6:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 6:50 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis 0 siblings, 2 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 6:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >>> (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters >> >> So there are lumpers and splitters ... >> >> I'm a lumper! > > Lumper wrote the article, now you tend to agree. > People can't be put in two groups. One can only take one > specific narrow context, and judge from a point of view that > one side is lumper oder splitter. But isn't the "lumping" in this context lumping together the proprietary Unix systems (e.g. SunOS/Solaris), the Linux distros and the BSDs into Unix? While the splitting is splitting the Unix into "Unix" and "Unix-like"? > If we are to judge you to be lumper... you are far from > that. You would not be on this mailing list if you would > generally be a lumper. Why? You are pedantic in every > detail, you correct smallest nitpicks just like Drew. That's a method/mindset that is beneficial in computing, you don't have to think "should I fix this?", you just fix everything without thinking at all, pretty soon. I don't know if it can ever go overboard but if so I'll take it and consider it an occupational hazard ... > There is general tendency in Emacs society to go rather > towards "splitters" group. Lumpers don't participate much > in discussions. That comment is so splitter. Why don't you join the lumper's camp and get into the game? > I don't see it that way. Intelligence is very related to > distinction. The higher ability to distinguish, probably > there is more intelligence. Lumpers could or may see that > distinction is not necessary in specific subject, it does > not mean they cannot distinguish. But it could be. What are you kidding, I _understand_ the Unix/Unix-like distinction very well! I'm intelligent enough to do that LOL. No, I disagree that is incorrect not to use it, because I think that distinctions in the world of technology should be made in terms of technology and reflect technology. What some business dudes piled together in their fancy documents shouldn't influence how I, a technology person, refer to technology. dig(1)? > Do you see this letter A and A? Are they same? They look > same but they are not same, as they must be saved in quite > different locations by different impulses which are not > same. Here we see my Lumper instinct, because I think they are both A. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 6:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 6:50 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:24 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-21 6:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs >> Intelligence is very related to distinction. The higher >> ability to distinguish, probably there is more >> intelligence [...] > > What are you kidding, I _understand_ the Unix/Unix-like > distinction very well! I'm intelligent enough to do that > LOL. No, I disagree that is incorrect not to use it [...] And on the other end, if you say "Linux or Unix" the way the human language and mind works the implication is that Linux isn't Unix. So that's just confusing, because it is. Indeed, I'm a Unix user here on GNU/Linux Debian :) You mean to say you guys are Unix-like users? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 6:50 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-22 14:24 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 09:53]: > >> Intelligence is very related to distinction. The higher > >> ability to distinguish, probably there is more > >> intelligence [...] > > > > What are you kidding, I _understand_ the Unix/Unix-like > > distinction very well! I'm intelligent enough to do that > > LOL. No, I disagree that is incorrect not to use it [...] > > And on the other end, if you say "Linux or Unix" the way the > human language and mind works the implication is that Linux > isn't Unix. > So that's just confusing, because it is. Indeed, I'm a > Unix user here on GNU/Linux Debian :) > > You mean to say you guys are Unix-like users? Me I am not Unix user, I am GNU user using Unix-like systems. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 14:24 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-27 1:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >> You mean to say you guys are Unix-like users? > > Me I am not Unix user, I am GNU user using > Unix-like systems. OK! (Word on the street Jean's a Unix user.) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-21 6:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 6:50 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-22 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-21 09:29]: > But isn't the "lumping" in this context lumping together the > proprietary Unix systems (e.g. SunOS/Solaris), the Linux > distros and the BSDs into Unix? I would not say, I have actually understand you and agree with you that they are "Unix" though I think it is better to say they are "Unix-like", and I don't mind it. > While the splitting is splitting the Unix into "Unix" and > "Unix-like"? Of course not only that... There are too many differences to explain here, it's not subject for Emacs. > > There is general tendency in Emacs society to go rather > > towards "splitters" group. Lumpers don't participate much > > in discussions. > > That comment is so splitter. Why don't you join the lumper's > camp and get into the game? If in that camp there are nice people to meet, I will join. I don't mind what they think or write. > No, I disagree that is incorrect not to use it, because > I think that distinctions in the world of technology should be > made in terms of technology and reflect technology. And me not, I think in terms of definitions and what companies, governments, trademarks and thus people forcibly consent to. And I recognize fully that you can call it as you wish, who cares. I would not tell to somebody "Just take any Unix like GNU" because it is not true, and I would not recommend Unix as it is not free software (that I know). So in that sense for people who read this, not for you, I was mentioning "Unix-like." Who cares for some if they want this or that. There is artistic freedom too, freedom of expression. > What some business dudes piled together in their fancy documents > shouldn't influence how I, a technology person, refer to > technology. dig(1)? Then expect to get into discussions. As me being from Europe I can see many things what African people don't see, so I enter into discussions all the time, as I am bringing some new reality onto them. > > Do you see this letter A and A? Are they same? They look > > same but they are not same, as they must be saved in quite > > different locations by different impulses which are not > > same. > > Here we see my Lumper instinct, because I think they are > both A. They may be both similar to A, though they are never same, because you said that A and A is equal to A, but it is not really, we stop our observation of what it is at simple meaning, but as they are in different space they cannot be equal. Not even those pixels are of perfectly equal size, and their memory electrons are not in same place, they are quite distinct to each other, in other words, what you thought of (eq 'A 'A) ⇒ t is not what is reality. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-27 1:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 1:10 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: >> But isn't the "lumping" in this context lumping together the >> proprietary Unix systems (e.g. SunOS/Solaris), the Linux >> distros and the BSDs into Unix? > > I would not say, I have actually understand you and agree > with you that they are "Unix" though I think it is better to > say they are "Unix-like", and I don't mind it. But for practical purposes Linux is Unix ... And as an OS it is also Unix ... And people refer to it as Unix often even casually, that term includes all Unix in theory but in practice Linux and the BSDs ... maybe some other? So people us it like that already. It just makes sense to them ;) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:10 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > I would not tell to somebody "Just take any Unix like GNU" > because it is not true, and I would not recommend Unix as it > is not free software (that I know). So in that sense for > people who read this, not for you, I was mentioning > "Unix-like." Who cares for some if they want this or that. > There is artistic freedom too, freedom of expression. It is a piece of technology! Like an engine or something :) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 1:10 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > They may be both similar to A, though they are never same, > because you said that A and A is equal to A, but it is not > really, we stop our observation of what it is at simple > meaning, but as they are in different space they cannot be > equal. Not even those pixels are of perfectly equal size, > and their memory electrons are not in same place, they are > quite distinct to each other, in other words, what you > thought of (eq 'A 'A) ⇒ t is not what is reality. Hahaha :D Far out :) -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 23:50 ` [External] : " Drew Adams 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-20 10:59 ` Jean Louis 1 sibling, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Help-Gnu-Emacs (help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org)' * Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> [2022-02-20 02:51]: > (Not a reply to any particular msg in this thread.) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters It should be obvious that article itself was written by lumpers. 😉 -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-19 22:29 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 23:50 ` [External] : " Drew Adams @ 2022-02-20 10:55 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:22 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 1 sibling, 1 reply; 128+ messages in thread From: Jean Louis @ 2022-02-20 10:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-20 01:31]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > > That means on Unix-like systems. It is better expressed that > > way. GNU is Not Unix, true, though it is very much > > Unix-like, such systems are mentioned as Unices if > > I remember well. > > But that is a formal distinction: > > A Unix-like (sometimes referred to as UN*X or *nix) > operating system is one that behaves in a manner similar to > a Unix system, although not necessarily conforming to or > being certified to any version of the Single UNIX > Specification. [1] > > But I don't care about that. And for good reason, because in > terms of technology a random Linux distribution found on > DistroWatch.com [2] is as much Unix as anything else. You can call it as you wish. Majority of people don't even know that there is operating system inside, they call it computer and that's it. They need not care as they belong in the group that does not see or maybe don't want to see distinctions. Though operating system makers and authors, they know that A is not B. > I played ice hockey for more than a decade. I didn't wear > a helmet a single time. But the IIHF says all players should > wear helmets. That means it wasn't ice hockey, what I took > part in was an "ice hockey-like sport". See? The absence of > a helmet _is_ what "breaks" it! Exactly, those are rules of the game. You can play a game by not following rules, it will not be counted. This is because of the agreements between people. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
* Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? 2022-02-20 10:55 ` Jean Louis @ 2022-02-27 1:22 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 0 siblings, 0 replies; 128+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor @ 2022-02-27 1:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Jean Louis wrote: > You can play a game by not following rules, it will not be > counted. This is because of the agreements between people. If not as people, you can tell the to behave like-people. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 128+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-03-04 2:28 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 128+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-02-18 20:59 Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-18 22:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 3:21 ` emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 3:38 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 3:44 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 4:10 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 4:52 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 6:24 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 6:37 ` Po Lu 2022-02-19 14:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-19 19:20 ` emacsq 2022-02-19 19:37 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 1:10 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 13:46 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 17:53 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 18:08 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-20 19:34 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-21 1:10 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 7:01 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 16:50 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-22 0:50 ` Po Lu 2022-02-23 11:53 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-23 12:03 ` Po Lu 2022-02-23 18:34 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 18:32 ` tomas 2022-02-20 18:57 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-20 19:47 ` tomas 2022-02-21 1:18 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 5:58 ` tomas 2022-02-21 1:13 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 14:05 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 18:40 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-21 1:02 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 19:34 ` Arthur Miller 2022-02-22 0:55 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 13:53 ` Max Brieiev 2022-02-22 0:56 ` Po Lu 2022-02-22 12:00 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 12:02 ` Po Lu 2022-02-22 12:33 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 14:09 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-22 14:39 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-22 14:05 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 14:12 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 16:46 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-20 13:41 ` Sergey Organov 2022-02-20 13:54 ` Po Lu 2022-02-20 20:11 ` Byung-Hee HWANG 2022-02-19 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 7:38 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 8:53 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 9:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 9:26 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 12:04 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 10:01 ` Pankaj Jangid 2022-02-19 13:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 17:54 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 22:42 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:39 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:20 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 17:51 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 17:56 ` Samuel Banya 2022-02-19 18:06 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-19 22:48 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:17 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-21 5:51 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 14:03 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-21 15:22 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya 2022-02-21 18:18 ` DragonFlyBSD Jean Louis 2022-02-26 16:54 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-26 16:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-26 16:45 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 2:53 ` DragonFlyBSD Samuel Banya 2022-02-27 2:59 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 19:49 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 2022-02-26 16:55 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-03-01 20:33 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 2022-03-01 22:08 ` DragonFlyBSD Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-03-02 7:19 ` DragonFlyBSD Lele Gaifax 2022-03-02 19:44 ` DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line (was: Re: DragonFlyBSD) Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-03-03 7:14 ` DEOL: Declarative Emacs On-Line Lele Gaifax 2022-03-04 2:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 22:44 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:42 ` Purposes of BSD-like systems Jean Louis 2022-02-20 12:56 ` Po Lu 2022-02-21 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 9:50 ` andrew 2022-02-26 16:41 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 14:04 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-26 16:39 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 18:08 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 19:30 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-19 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:40 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 12:21 ` Why is GNU not Unix-like system? Jean Louis 2022-02-20 13:00 ` Eli Zaretskii 2022-02-19 19:35 ` Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis 2022-02-19 23:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 22:52 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 22:29 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-19 23:50 ` [External] : " Drew Adams 2022-02-20 0:21 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 0:31 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-20 6:49 ` Yuri Khan 2022-02-20 11:16 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-21 6:31 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:11 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:01 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 23:12 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Drew Adams 2022-02-21 6:32 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 16:10 ` Drew Adams 2022-02-27 1:15 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:12 ` Lumpers & Splitter Jean Louis 2022-02-27 0:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 11:09 ` [External] : Re: Would there be a drawback of using the same graphical toolkit on every platform? Jean Louis 2022-02-21 6:28 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-21 6:50 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:24 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-22 14:22 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:09 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 1:10 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-27 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor 2022-02-20 10:59 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-20 10:55 ` Jean Louis 2022-02-27 1:22 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
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