From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Closures - do you understand them well? Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87lenh7vrn.fsf@web.de> <87tu25d77o.fsf@gnu.org> <87h6y5pt8k.fsf@web.de> <87bkodpqnk.fsf@web.de> <87tu24yowj.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14402"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Emanuel Berg , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 10 18:21:22 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1p43XL-0003TI-7l for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:21:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p43X6-00040z-5g; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 12:21:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p43X4-00040e-Um for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 12:21:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p43X1-0006sE-Rl for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 12:21:02 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0246631.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 2BAGxERq021356; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:55 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2022-7-12; bh=M267G15VFyT0IqCnGFYZo6u8ke8xFjfOS5yO24FIij0=; b=AnRoLx0tvHDSK6aWpCDAB74HXSwTtL29n5UD2cpwr7N9Pca8mrQ8sybm90MIXu5GTIy+ NUlywXz5wWWZ3VBWQtGEzy8OIB/VzsukmorjX7B7oY9K4IcKBoRh/RyG3wqLxwptmIjO RKSbZxmMQA2wwQRCuwILcavVPXjafP7UC6YSZr5CPUSk6c913hc9+A3oPvbgrvNPa2e/ JKZD97G0493mbJP6NHi6C/ghxTf5sL9CxsWkxigC/VgbXq22QFE+32fB//EIl4uY69Yt c3kf2yM0IR0MlH3kH8KD62GSp23AKnpAFv/0A3iTMs9jn1CEjol+haP+rEct9qrDFrC/ xA== Original-Received: from phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (phxpaimrmta01.appoci.oracle.com [138.1.114.2]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3mcgw28jqu-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:55 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com [127.0.0.1]) by phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (8.17.1.5/8.17.1.5) with ESMTP id 2BAH9P70031182; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:54 GMT Original-Received: from nam10-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10lp2103.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.103]) by phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3mcgj1wqm0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:54 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=eMYa0xwc/dgdLiqV8xIuIAwUhzqtQw2mEuRTSO89wH9dwRVsiLgk20Eh+yi9Wktb/LuZxQPmQNkIZUyx+XpyJwmWh862GJHjkKEyWAwtA8YJKpnAUQZhiCsBMXol2etT5PQifz325mC6WAtpWrFrZPSRodLHlMe7+6Cw3uzDgkr0jv+gJO/uWK+gA6qESsiCLD3nN6CdrMwiEkWj9vaMYbthf07DliQ2Wj5TeCEWUnv4ALIjyKZv5R5Wkt2YRA9+TUfMNERmqg7/mUr05bq4NfoDU26jp5+rNcnGSMyWwNXznGuQ40JW56dDtpbvAxmjT1MkO9lKjR5PEhn+9izY2w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=M267G15VFyT0IqCnGFYZo6u8ke8xFjfOS5yO24FIij0=; b=Fnt72qYYOfoI2fsioGPell0qpyZueT2e43QmZGcomQMEWL6RFNP3BINa1qfPBTDo8sFDwQf0uHcW5jOgkZOmFMsfgU7HrufDLXNoD0Hv83ML+Mhi2KruLr8UAZCIaUDB4D7yYjQsfIuI25/9o+OJJJ3FMMVgpCkFK3kTb0pGKoUXwrI48w4R6hAn7RX/FJwMB87Q4terNEA1A2NgQb5+g4Tbuxl2lYGkvFtEXVmFU/aISD8NPNN5b2f1DtM0AwTXOzSA4Ye2diif7F3Y2hBr/KaX5lOJIj48MoQ3ZBa6juM5jyzRd+0XyKTK6F3d8YvcrZ+G2Z7hLb6p26Az/5/fgA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=M267G15VFyT0IqCnGFYZo6u8ke8xFjfOS5yO24FIij0=; b=q2wkY3V+7SANyH4MDisU3aLFtA64zl/pYxZXUtIu19WrN5poVJz/a0jDmQu4pHkfTIpxQ2C1jRCTTMTHZSe0oIhT8ZutIM5PW/GP5DO82cSvG8n24ssSZEKcPFfrHdx0bEidS0rUUEronR/SvhywJBik/jGMSOcjUhFuOVaoFWE= Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by CH2PR10MB4358.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:610:a8::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5880.19; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:47 +0000 Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::176d:3689:aa5b:91b]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::176d:3689:aa5b:91b%2]) with mapi id 15.20.5880.019; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:20:47 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Closures - do you understand them well? Thread-Index: AQHZDIAaXwLOc7WWxkmJKitQcSRI5a5nV+gw In-Reply-To: <87tu24yowj.fsf@dataswamp.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|CH2PR10MB4358:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1b2b3f38-e162-4564-4910-08dadad2e084 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230022)(39860400002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(366004)(346002)(451199015)(33656002)(86362001)(38070700005)(122000001)(71200400001)(186003)(478600001)(9686003)(38100700002)(966005)(26005)(7696005)(6506007)(316002)(110136005)(41300700001)(66476007)(66446008)(66946007)(8676002)(64756008)(76116006)(66556008)(44832011)(52536014)(8936002)(2906002)(5660300002)(55016003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?iso-8859-1?Q?8dGpyz1TbiL574fJayhMHk2OEhGhKcRwHyyR6JTD8VlxbR5MyIa4v94iaK?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?RRVJZfeVVAjuyTD83FahcmnBPHOCoNv9DS17ZxleikxcjfKdGP7AnSRGgE?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?HAE+H8QWduhYGDmEpsCQtZrkcmcdGei/F2RBhcdAeKLh8yLf8hj8lFYdSy?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?J991EnaWBPOFxPzlvPlJ2d6b5xMvvnKzYD4gE1qPgJ63pqthio0UF5scYm?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?RBQeC3BRoTUgcRrrmVxpGff6oGMTORsI041SBSDvxWXG+h1AxkcDYv3tV7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?18VWtmFL2GG1inAabf7diYF1V6z5QGVcaJsXM0XSpyJgovZqUdhQBNIzKE?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?5BmWy25xh2TU91WY3L021f5Lcl0Pc2RcJWyd6u9MXhSddQsYBLGnpH7hwM?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?vS7ZkcuJM5btQXzQif5pYi7A7L4rwqZRzIy2DrLG1YaXJ6JedEO9hrdSIJ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?JI03G2OCPFM8XgH4SIRmFq4uWnYd4l4BEVyGg3e2Bt0ZvJKIlxv/SP0Jof?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?E6gHJhO+ht8YnLGtlqXWlXtx2ZGI5+SwM281QdDgWb8HHn/c5q8fi+UUDz?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?3l29PiUlSGsRY1HkMuYS6NvPSNu6aq+68GCYFrFl1pvoyodkxfcafphdhA?= =?iso-8859-1?Q? X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1b2b3f38-e162-4564-4910-08dadad2e084 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Dec 2022 17:20:47.0787 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: GaK7M2POMoBL2Dk5ke8V9BBCuxNbahFMmMfC3CRjg36Ni2RFUFmrV2Mm9mngSe21x6Pwi9sQ3iDKb4s6RY53Hw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR10MB4358 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.923,Hydra:6.0.545,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2022-12-10_06,2022-12-08_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2210170000 definitions=main-2212100157 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: m_EkTh2nrViPe0GB4VMpc9tkFuK9Uj1A X-Proofpoint-GUID: m_EkTh2nrViPe0GB4VMpc9tkFuK9Uj1A Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.220.177.32; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:141588 Archived-At: > > Indeed, when I looked at it, I decided it was too much > > trouble figuring out how to change `cl-loop` to provide that > > behavior :-( IMO `cl-loop` is too complex for its own good. >=20 > All of Lisp is, and the reason is it's so simple to begin with ... Most likely Stefan meant that the code implementing `cl-loop' is complex - even too complex for its own good (it's a bother to maintain/improve/correct). But it's also the case that for a _user_ the syntax of `(cl-)loop' is complex - certainly much more complex than the usual Lisp syntax. You essentially have to learn another language - `loop' - to use it. That's one of the arguments in favor of using macro `iterate' instead: its syntax is more "lispy". Users can of course learn the language of `loop', just as they can learn the language of Unix `find', and just as they can learn the language (patterns) of regular expressions, or those of `pcase'. And for the simplest, most common `loop' cases they need not learn/memorize everything in the language. Nevertheless, it remains true that a second/separate language is introduced. That can present advantages (code can often look like simple English commands), but it also presents disadvantages. It's largely a question of taste/style, and "Des go=FBts et des couleurs, on ne discute pas". https://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/des+go%C3%BBts+et+des+couleur= s+on+ne+discute+pas On the other hand, Occam might have something to say here about multiplying things unnecessarily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor (The rule behind Occam's taste & color preferences, perhaps, but a good rule of thumb nevertheless. The taste question comes in when deciding just which multiplying is "unnecessary".)