From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Masterson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: History Re: Debunking Emacs merits over GUI - Re: package for Email Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 22:04:08 -0800 Message-ID: References: <20230118180348.gzwvy6iztok45ko3@zoho.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24785"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Gottfried , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" To: Milan Glacier Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 21 07:10:01 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pJ74i-0006E6-9X for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=outlook_98C99531806B1C22@outlook.com; helo=NAM04-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:142457 Archived-At: Jean Louis writes: > * Milan Glacier [2023-01-18 21:06]: >> I don't use gnus. >> >> > 11. What are the benefits compared to thunderbird? >> > A. Only the keybindings of Emacs I can use and in knowing them it will >> > be easier in future to handle it? >> > B. It is within emacs and uses less CPU >> > C...... >> >> I don't use thunderbird. But emacs/cli based emails clients generally >> have common merits over GUI client: >> >> - They are keyboard centric. > > That some application is "keyboard centric" is not a merit over GUI > client which is maybe assumed not to be keyboard centric. In fact, > being "keyboard centric" impairs usability. I think this thread is kind of missing a key point -- history. I've been around Emacs for ~40 years (yes, TECO Emacs), but I'm, by no means, close to being a "Master of Emacs" (we used to call them Gurus). I never had time to learn Elisp programming, so I just hacked Elisp code together to try out new things (basically setq and add-to-hook and, maybe, advise until packages came along) to help me with my work. There's a lot of history behind what I just said: 1. The PC Revolution Mainframes became the backroom land of COBOL that no self-respecting college grad would go to. Minis slowly disappeared as PCs began making their mark. The problem was that it would be 15-25 years before affordable PCs that were powerful enough to really support Emacs (and Linux) became available. But PCs were the market, so programmers moved there. 2. Free Software While RMS' goal may have been laudable, many (most) programmers could not see how to monetize their work in a free software environment and, so, went where the money was more plentiful. Without the investment of big bucks that copyrighted software could command, development of Emacs in the 90s slowed to a crawl and depended on the programmer "with an itch". Good stuff was done, but it could've been so much more. This is why Emacs development took 40 years whereas things might've happened faster in the more capitalistic world (but Emacs would've been very different beast!). 3. WWW The web brought Linux to the forefront in the 1990s because it had the power for the server applications that DOS and Windows didn't (for awhile). The competition for programmers was on, but PCs still had a huge lead. Programmers appreciated the Emacs environment, but often had to use specific tools. 4. Gaming PCs Games built a big market for more powerful PCs (and vice versa). Linux could steadily take advantage of the new power, but PC applications had a huge lead. Although Linux may have had cross-platform development capabilities, the preference was for native (MS-Windows) tools, so Emacs didn't get a lot of attention. 5. Smartphones The iPhone is still not capable of supporting Emacs and I don't know how well Android could support Emacs. Even if they could support Emacs, Smartphones are GUI-intensive, so not really an environment for a text editor. So the next generation of users/programmers are going to be "non-GUI challenged". 6. AI This is an area that I wasn't in, so I can't say much. I assume it will lead to more server systems and Linux (and Emacs) can ride the coattails. The tools for AI may be more in the Linux world, so the landscape could change. The editor wars are long over -- Visual Studio (and it's ilk) won. Everything else is just trying to fit in around the edges... (But I still like Emacs!) -- David Masterson