From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:51:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:58:36 +0000) <87o8gpsqhu.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13338"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "gregory@heytings.org" , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" , "bugs@gnu.support" To: Robert Thorpe Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 12 18:52:30 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAccI-0003Md-9G for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:51:53 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Thread-Index: AQHXAQ9sfx0njl65qEKYK8LtwQCWWapUygmg In-Reply-To: <87o8gpsqhu.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: robertthorpeconsulting.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;robertthorpeconsulting.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 320bed56-7965-480d-b6b2-08d8cf7ee1fa x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SA2PR10MB4764: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2130.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127859 Archived-At: > > [Removed bugs@gnu.support from cc list. > > Why was it included?] >=20 > That email address is Jean Louis, that's why it's there. I find it > confusing too. Oh, sorry about that. I thought it was maybe some other mailing list. > >> If a *general* moratorium isn't possible, then how about a more > >> specific one? How about applying it only to certain keymaps > >> or prefix keys. > > > > We shouldn't assume from the get-go that a more > > general hands-off isn't possible. > > > > (I know you said "if". But Emacs devel _can_ > > sometimes be moved by what its users say they want.) >=20 > I'm not convinced that a totally general moratorium would be good. For > example, on this list a few days ago we talked about info-apropos. > John Yates suggested binding it to a key in the C-h prefix. >=20 > I think something like that is fairly harmless. Changing something two > prefixes away is likely to affect nobody (e.g. C-x 8 1). I agree that there are nuances, and that adding a key to an already bound prefix key is less aggressive than binding a top-level key by default. Good point. But let's at least start with a first-level approximation. The problem is not so much the kind of thing you describe there. The problem is things like Emacs suddenly deciding to bind `C-x p', `C-x x', `C-x /' etc. by default. Details about possibly binding _any_ more keys by default should be discussed generally, widely. That's not been done. A general convention that Emacs should not do this is in order, IMHO. And I made clear that exceptions can always be handled by good, general discussion followed by maintainer decision. It's not black & white. There is a serious problem, and I think there we should establish a general convention/rule/guideline/under= standing that Emacs should keep its mitts off keys not already bound. As I pointed out, there's plenty of room for Emacs to restructure existing default key bindings, to consolidate using prefix keys or whatever. And doing that can free up keys both for new Emacs default bindings and 3rd-party code. For the former, I'm thinking along the lines you mentioned - e.g. add a binding on some existing default prefix key, while removing some global default key, i.e., move a command from a somewhat wasted default key to a default prefix key. Let Emacs restructure, to find keys it thinks it needs. There's room for that. Of course, doing that is hard work. It requires and invites the kind of my-key vs your-key discussion we've now been seeing. It's much _easier_ for Emacs to just grab another virgin key. But that's wrong - that's the problem.