From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : indentation Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:54:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210427090348.67C9B5D0@centrum.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24745"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Stefan Monnier , "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 27 19:55:49 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lbRw5-0006LR-HY for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:55:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34014 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbRw4-0007xD-KC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2130.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:129171 Archived-At: > > This "modernization" was yet another attempt to make Emacs > > seem more like other apps some people might be used to. >=20 > Huh? This modernization was pretty much a unilateral choice made by > yours truly, and I have no idea what "other apps" do in this regard, so > the intention was definitely not what you state. And yet you said things like this, as motivation for the change: "because most people don't use C-j but use RET instead" and "I'm obviously not the only, because it's very common for text editors to 'auto-indent on RET' (either by default, or via a config setting). And others who supported the change gave similar reasons: "Every IDE does that [what `newline-and-indent' does] when the user presses RET." (Dmitry) "The days when keyboards had an LFD key that produced C-j are long gone. Nowadays, keyboards have only the RET key, and users expect it to indent in programming modes, at least by default. As things are now, I need to customize every programming mode I use to do that. I think it's time for a change." (Eli) The main argument in favor of this default change was, IMO, modernization ("time for a change"), to align Emacs default behavior with what users of other apps had come to expect. I say that after reviewing the various discussions about making such a change. And no, it was not a unilateral choice by you. There was quite a long discussion (more than one), with many voices pro and con before a decision was made. > I know full well that it disagrees with some users, but > there has been surprisingly few complaints over this change, It's easy enough to turn it off - that's the point. The default doesn't matter a lot. But to say that few people complained about the change is wrong - misleading, IMHO. Once _changed_, few complain about most default changes that are easy for an individual user to remedy/reverse. That was the case here. Just turn it off by default and Bob's your uncle, if you don't want electric indenting by default. That's the answer for Petr.