keyboard for emacs?

keyboard for emacs?

[Ronald]

Is today's keyboard suitable for using emacs?

I saw an old one today on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vi.

The layout is more suitable for vi and emacs.

I doubt today's popular keyboard layouts is not mainly for programmers, 
especially UNIX programmers.

Any good idea?

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[ken]

On 12/26/2006 09:32 PM somebody named Ronald wrote:
> Is today's keyboard suitable for using emacs?
> 
> I saw an old one today on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vi.
> 
> The layout is more suitable for vi and emacs.
> 
> I doubt today's popular keyboard layouts is not mainly for programmers,
> especially UNIX programmers.
> 
> Any good idea?

If you're using GNU/Linux you can program the keyboard to any layout you
want.

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Ryo]

Hi

Ronald wrote:
> Is today's keyboard suitable for using emacs?
>
> I saw an old one today on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vi.
>
> The layout is more suitable for vi and emacs.
>
> I doubt today's popular keyboard layouts is not mainly for programmers,
> especially UNIX programmers.
>
> Any good idea?

I'm not sure if I understand your problem correctly, but . . .
1) I think that the most common English keyboards which come with
 DOS/V PCs are annoying if used with vi and emacs because the
 ESC key is far above and the Ctrl key is far below.
2) There are keyboards with the Ctrl key to the left of the
 "A" key and the ESC key to the left of the "1/!" key,
 such as the one I use (Happy Hacking Keyboard).
3) It is possible to change key-layouts "software-wise".
 For example, when I have to use the annoying PC keyboard,
 I exchange Ctrl with Caps.  I don't physically replace the
 plastic pieces, but install a piece of software or make a
 software arrangement so that the physical Caps key functions
 as a Ctrl key.

Regards,
Ryo

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[ken]

On 12/26/2006 09:56 PM somebody named Ryo wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Ronald wrote:
>> Is today's keyboard suitable for using emacs?
>>
>> I saw an old one today on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vi.
>>
>> The layout is more suitable for vi and emacs.
>>
>> I doubt today's popular keyboard layouts is not mainly for programmers,
>> especially UNIX programmers.
>>
>> Any good idea?
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand your problem correctly, but . . .
> 1) I think that the most common English keyboards which come with
>  DOS/V PCs are annoying if used with vi and emacs because the
>  ESC key is far above and the Ctrl key is far below.

Even without any remapping of the keyboard, C-[ (i.e., Ctrl and '[' keys
at the same time) = ESC.  This functionality goes back to DOS v.1.0.  So
I almost never use ESC... only when one hand is holding a sandwich.


> 2) There are keyboards with the Ctrl key to the left of the
>  "A" key and the ESC key to the left of the "1/!" key,
>  such as the one I use (Happy Hacking Keyboard).

In the early days, *all* keyboards were like that... the CapsLock was in
the same place it was on all typewriters (i.e., *not* next to the 'A'
key).  Conspiracy theory had it that M$ had a hand in moving the Ctrl
key to the periphery in order to defeat its word processing rival,
Wordstar (which made heavy use of the Ctrl key), and promote its own Word.


> 3) It is possible to change key-layouts "software-wise".
>  For example, when I have to use the annoying PC keyboard,
>  I exchange Ctrl with Caps.  I don't physically replace the
>  plastic pieces, but install a piece of software or make a
>  software arrangement so that the physical Caps key functions
>  as a Ctrl key.

Right.  I've always been able to find shareware for DOS/Windows to do
this.  On Linux there's a few ways-- already built into Linux-- to swap
Ctrl and CapsLock.


> 
> Regards,
> Ryo
> 
> _______________________________________________
> help-gnu-emacs mailing list
> help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Tom Horsley]

> > 3) It is possible to change key-layouts "software-wise".
> >  For example, when I have to use the annoying PC keyboard,
> >  I exchange Ctrl with Caps.  I don't physically replace the
> >  plastic pieces, but install a piece of software or make a
> >  software arrangement so that the physical Caps key functions
> >  as a Ctrl key.

Or maybe you just need one of these:

http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

(Ah, if only it was real - might be someday, but has slipped more
times than Charlie Chaplin so far :-).

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Ryo]

Tom Horsley wrote:
> > > 3) It is possible to change key-layouts "software-wise".
[. . .]
> Or maybe you just need one of these:
>
> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

Bravo! It would solve all keyboard-related questions
(and even some non-keyboard-related ones, like
Which city is the capital of Russia? :-)
See http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/answers/
)

Thanks for the info!

Ryo

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Mark Geary]

In article <mailman.2396.1167219322.2155.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
ken  <gebser@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> 
> On 12/26/2006 09:56 PM somebody named Ryo wrote:
> > 
> > 3) It is possible to change key-layouts "software-wise".
> >  For example, when I have to use the annoying PC keyboard,
> >  I exchange Ctrl with Caps.  I don't physically replace the
> >  plastic pieces, but install a piece of software or make a
> >  software arrangement so that the physical Caps key functions
> >  as a Ctrl key.
> 
> Right.  I've always been able to find shareware for DOS/Windows to do
> this.  On Linux there's a few ways-- already built into Linux-- to swap
> Ctrl and CapsLock.

Does anyone know how to do this on Mac OS X? Swapping the CapsLock and
the left Ctrl key only (leaving the right Ctrl as is)?

Mark Geary
-- 
Don't forget to stop and eat the roses.

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 28.12.2006 um 16:11 schrieb Mark Geary:

> Does anyone know how to do this on Mac OS X? Swapping the CapsLock and
> the left Ctrl key only (leaving the right Ctrl as is)?

The Carbon Emacsen and also Emacs.app allow this.

--
Greetings

   Pete

Eat the rich – the poor are tough and stringy.

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[B. Smith-Mannschott]

On Dec 28, 2006, at 16:11, Mark Geary wrote:

>> Right.  I've always been able to find shareware for DOS/Windows to do
>> this.  On Linux there's a few ways-- already built into Linux-- to  
>> swap
>> Ctrl and CapsLock.
>
> Does anyone know how to do this on Mac OS X? Swapping the CapsLock and
> the left Ctrl key only (leaving the right Ctrl as is)?

I've just settled on remapping Caps Lock to Ctrl since I don't use  
Caps Lock. This can be accomplished via System Preferences >>  
Keyboard & Mouse >> Keyboard >> Modifier Keys. Maybe that's "good  
enough" [tm]?

FWIW back in the old days (ADB) the mac never distinguished between  
left and right modifier keys. I don't know if this is still the case  
with USB keyboards.

// ben

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Alexey Pustyntsev]

Hi all!


I am not a Mac OS X user (I run Gentoo), but I successfully changed the
qwerty layout into dvorak. I just created a brand new file named
dvorak-ru, put it into /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc and set the Option
"XkbLayout" to "dvorak, dvorak-ru" in the xorg.conf file. As you have
correctly guessed, Mr. Dvorak did not invented his layout for Russians,
so that was custom re-mapping of almost the whole keyboard, not just 2
keys.

It seems to me the above method should work for any unix-like OS. Have
a look at the syntax of the files like 'dvorak' or 'latin' in the
~/xkb directory. It is very simple. You could even write your own bash 
(python/perl) script so that your layout swaps upside down as soon as
your display gets locked while you are away  :) (not a 'silver
bullet', of course, but that can make the snooper's life  a little
bit more complicated) ! You get the idea.

geary@fnord.io.com (Mark Geary) writes:

> Does anyone know how to do this on Mac OS X? Swapping the CapsLock and
> the left Ctrl key only (leaving the right Ctrl as is)?
>
> Mark Geary

Off-topic: I am very pleased to join the GNU Emacs community. Let me
wish all of you well in the New Year.

-- 
Rgds
Alexey

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Eugene Oleinik]

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>>>>> Alexey Pustyntsev on Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:51:18 +1000 wrote:

> As you have correctly guessed, Mr. Dvorak did not invented his
> layout for Russians, so that was custom re-mapping of almost the
> whole keyboard, not just 2 keys.

There is a very nice recipe on EmacsWiki, where keys are remapped
via Emacs facility.  It's a better way for our task, because it'll
work in plain terminal.

http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/WritingRussianWithDvorak

-- 
All the best, eo.

STARLAN SHA Reno Medco class struggle Al Jazeera BATF lynch
anarchy Rule Psix Treasury John Kerry AUTODIN CNCIS analyzer

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Re: keyboard for emacs?

[Alexey Pustyntsev]

Eugene Oleinik <eo@aoizora.org> writes:

> There is a very nice recipe on EmacsWiki, where keys are remapped
> via Emacs facility.  It's a better way for our task, because it'll
> work in plain terminal.
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/WritingRussianWithDvorak
>
> -- 
> All the best, eo.

That's interesting. I started using dvorak long before I dived into
Emacs that's why my solution is different.

Eugene, thanks a lot.

-- 
Rgds
Alexey

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[David Combs]

In article <1167188207.954542.311960@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
Ryo <furufuru@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> wrote:
>Hi


>2) There are keyboards with the Ctrl key to the left of the
> "A" key and the ESC key to the left of the "1/!" key,
> such as the one I use (Happy Hacking Keyboard).

Yep -- SUN sells them -- it's their "TYPE 6" (USB) -- and
it's CHEAP!   A real deal!   Makes emacs *possible*!

David

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[B. Smith-Mannschott]

On Dec 27, 2006, at 03:32, Ronald wrote:

> Is today's keyboard suitable for using emacs?

The best keyboard I've found for using emacs has to be my kinesis  
contoured keyboard [1].

   [1] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured_usb.htm

This is primarily because control and alt (meta) are located within  
easy reach of my thumbs (along with space, delete, backspace,  
enter ...) and a few other keys. I have the two primary emacs  
modifiers (control, meta) in easy reach of both hands. No need to  
hunt for that pesky escape key.

That said, I can work with a happy hacking keyboard comfortably  
because the control key is just next to the A, and I've remapped my  
macbook's caps lock key to function as a second control key. That's  
also satisfactory.

It would be very different (i.e. craptastic) if I were unable to  
remap control, particularly since the macbook has an [fn] key in the  
corner where one might expect to find control.

// ben

Re: keyboard for emacs?

[jmg3000]

B. Smith-Mannschott wrote:
> On Dec 27, 2006, at 03:32, Ronald wrote:
>
> > Is today's keyboard suitable for using emacs?
>
> The best keyboard I've found for using emacs has to be my kinesis
> contoured keyboard [1].
>
>    [1] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured_usb.htm
>

I'll 2nd that. I saved up and bought one for work and one for home (got
the PS/2 models b/c the USB hadn't been released yet). Using them with
the dvorak layout too. Best gear I ever bought. Hope to never have to
go back to a ``conventional'' keyboard.

There's an emacswiki page on this keyboard, btw:
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/KinesisKeyboard

---John