From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Joe Corneli Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: X11 Mac OS X 10.3 emacs fink: only terminal? Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 05:26:47 -0600 Message-ID: References: <1102952440.733798.50520@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <325srfF3gmkjmU2@individual.net> <326je9F3j7frtU1@individual.net> <327dl2F3gcngrU1@individual.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1103024185 22208 80.91.229.6 (14 Dec 2004 11:36:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:36:25 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 14 12:36:17 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CeAyW-0004qW-00 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:36:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeB8f-00053Q-D2 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:46:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CeB8L-00053K-Ln for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:46:25 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CeB8K-00052x-Cp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:46:24 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeB8J-00052u-T8 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:46:24 -0500 Original-Received: from [146.6.139.124] (helo=dell3.ma.utexas.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeAvA-0007wX-J7 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 06:32:48 -0500 Original-Received: from linux183.ma.utexas.edu (mail@linux183.ma.utexas.edu [146.6.139.172]) by dell3.ma.utexas.edu (8.11.0.Beta3/8.10.2) with ESMTP id iBEBQll02737; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 05:26:47 -0600 Original-Received: from jcorneli by linux183.ma.utexas.edu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CeApL-0004iP-00; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 05:26:47 -0600 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org In-reply-to: <327dl2F3gcngrU1@individual.net> (message from D P Schreber on 14 Dec 2004 05:56:50 GMT) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:22736 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:22736 On 2004-12-14, Joe Corneli wrote: > I'm not saying it is unacceptable to use Emacs under Aqua, I'm saying > that it isn't "better". The OP was asking for help with X11 The OP asked for help in getting a windowed emacs working in osx, with scrollbars etc. If that was all he was after, the carbon emacs is something he needed to know about, if he didn't already. So I mentioned it. Btw I also gave him the pointer to fix his X11 problem. As it turns it, the OP mentioned later that he has other X11 needs, and that was the end of that as far as I was concerned. This is where you come in. Personally I'm a pragmatist about such things. Sorry but I just don't like fundamentalism. I have both an X11 build and a carbon build on my system and I use whichever one makes more sense at any given time. Sometimes I run emacs in a terminal. Sometimes I use vim. Like most people who read this newsgroup, I'm clever enough to adapt to my environment and to circumstances. > seems inappropriate to suggest a nonfree replacement. This is just utterly absurd. He's already made the decision to run osx. That was done before this discussion even started. Get over it. Maybe you think there's some great moral issue in play if you run ./configure with --with-carbon instead of --with-x11. But if you do, well, frankly that makes you a loon imo. Why would I want to use some parochial, proprietary, monolithic, *nonfree* windowing system when I could use an advanced, portable, highly configurable free one (i.e., X11 and ratpoison ;))? I run OS X, but my user experience is essentially indistinguishable from my experience on GNU/Linux. Same window manager, same shell, same configurations. If I run into something that can't be done with free software on my box, I typically don't do it. There are a few exceptions, which I've justified to myself in various ways. For example, I used a synthesizer that, when running on OS X, relies on one specific nonfree part of the OS X system in a nontrivial way. I wanted to write an emacs interface for this program. (If I understand correctly, other people were working on porting other software to OS X that would eliminate the dependence on these nonfree components; they might be done by this time, I don't know.) My setup might rely on some other low-level nonfree parts of the operating system that I don't know about: I haven't investigated, but it doesn't seem unlikely. That isn't terribly important to me. What's important to me is that my work and UI are free and portable. Anything else would be a waste of my time and effort, and not at all pragmatic. It doesn't take me long to "convert" a virgin OS X or GNU/Linux setup into one that feels just like the one I'm using now. That's how I adapt to my environment: I make it adapt to me. I'm certainly not going to sit there banging away with some feature-poor keyboard layout, dragging windows around with a pointing device, injuring myself and working at a snail's pace, not for long, not unless I'm forced to. If you don't dig it, I'm not going to get upset. You work however you want to work, I'm not trying to stop you or insult you or convert you or tell you what works for you when I haven't really got a clue or anything of the sort. The point I was making is that on GNU lists, it is forbidden to recommend nonfree software.