From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: special buffer frames again Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 08:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1178206527 30999 80.91.229.12 (3 May 2007 15:35:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:35:27 +0000 (UTC) To: Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu May 03 17:35:23 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HjdKz-000852-QL for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 17:35:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjdRW-0002Yl-K7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:42:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HjdQj-0001q6-CD for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:41:17 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HjdQh-0001pT-Rw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:41:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HjdQh-0001pO-ID for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:41:15 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HjdK9-0001xb-LI for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 May 2007 11:34:30 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l43FY9Yb019457 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 10:34:09 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l43EtLgg015693 for ; Thu, 3 May 2007 09:34:08 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-4op11-4op12-west-130-35-178-179.us.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2668145461178206426; Thu, 03 May 2007 08:33:46 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:43600 Archived-At: > And actually, someone who uses such a setup recently complained on > emacs-devel about a change I made that caused the frame to be > deleted rather than iconified, so frame deletion doesn't seem good > either. IIRC this someone was called "Drew Adams", maybe you know him ;-) Please; we disagreed in that thread, including disagreeing about what was said in the previous thread (!). Please don't spread confusion to a third thread (and another mailing list) that has been about something different. *Backtrace* is not the same kind of "temporary" buffer as *Completions*: it's not obvious when someone is finished with *Backtrace*. I was clear from the beginning (my bug report after your changes) about my own preferences for the *Backtrace* frame: 1. Emacs 20 and 21 were fine for this - just leave the frame alone, and let users delete it when they're done with it. 2. Your change to have automatic iconification was annoying. 3. After discussion/negotiation, I was OK with deleting the frame automatically, instead of iconifying it - but I still prefer the Emacs 20/21 behavior here. IOW, you preferred auto-iconification of *Backtrace*; I preferred leaving the frame for me to delete explicitly (`C-k' or `C-0'), and the compromise was to delete the frame whenever the user hits `q'. Different buffers have different uses and different criteria of "done". *Help*, for instance, should be left as is until the user explicitly quits (`q'), at which point its standalone frame should be deleted, not iconified. Quitting *Backtrace* with `q' isn't equivalent, IMO. It doesn't signal that the user is finished debugging; it means only that s?he wants to quit that particular debugging invocation and return to top level. A standalone *Completions* frame should be deleted (not iconified) whenever completion is finished (e.g. `RET'). People have different practices; one is not wrong and the other right. It would be good to 1) have reasonable default behavior that reflects what many or most people want, but also 2) let users customize the behavior easily. Perhaps we can agree on at least that much, and then look for ways to do that? An unconfigurable compromise, such as that for *Backtrace*, is bound to be unsatisfactory all around, even if the best possible compromise is found. Both you and I should be able to get the behavior we like for something like *Backtrace*, without individually hacking the bowels of the source code. Likewise, for *Help*, *Completions*, and so on.