From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: My emacs was upgraded and I am a novice again Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:47:58 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87lkavy80o.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190735346 26868 80.91.229.12 (25 Sep 2007 15:49:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:49:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: "Bastien" , "Emre Sahin" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 25 17:49:02 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IaCeX-0004hq-6f for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:48:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaCeS-0005O6-0z for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:48:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IaCdk-0005FQ-Fc for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:48:00 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IaCdh-0005Ej-0G for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:47:59 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaCdg-0005Ec-R6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:47:56 -0400 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com ([148.87.113.118]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IaCdg-0006Wv-DX for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:47:56 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw1.us.oracle.com (agmgw1.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.212]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id l8PFleub011689; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:47:40 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id l8PFIIh7002557; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:47:39 -0600 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-198.vpn.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3242975181190735258; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:47:38 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <87lkavy80o.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Message-Flag: Follow up X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:47843 Archived-At: > > Then, today, when I was changing the face for mode line from *Customize > > Group: Mode Line Faces*, I saw something like "Display Time Mail Face" > > which is reported to change the display of "display-time-mail-string" > > variable. I C-h v'd it, and voila! > > I've been (unsuccessfully) looking for this yesterday -- thanks :) ... > C-h d of "display" gives about 10000 lines of text and this doesn't > report "display-time-mail-string" as a variable. C-h d of "mail" is > about 2700 lines of text and this doesn't contain it either. I used > "mode-line" to search also and I didn't understand anything from > mode-line-format variable's value, for example. (There is a format > description with signs like %a, %B, but there is no such thing in the > value, just a set of cryptic functions without any reference to mail.) > > Maybe I gave up early without checking Google, but I used apropos, > apropos-documentation and describe-variable for the keywords I can > think of. As you say, there may be too many hits and I might miss (and > I agree that I'm not a perfect user of documentation), but what I say > is that this problem is not about documentation format and such > technicalities; I think it's a result of "information explosion" and > no perfect communication between user and documentation should be > expected (as no perfect communication between people exists.) One can > only provide better tools but this won't solve the problem perfectly. What you say is true. However, sometimes the information explosion can be sufficiently tamed that you can find what you need. Tools do sometimes make a difference. Icicles command `icicle-doc' lets you search all doc strings (functions, variables, faces) for matches to one or more doc strings. That's a *lot* of doc, believe me. For example: M-x icicle-doc RET mail S-SPC mode line shows all doc strings that match both `mail' and `mode line', in any order, as completion candidates. Choose a matching candidate to see its full description in buffer *Help* (with the function signature or variable name and value etc.). You can also visit each of several (or all) candidates on the fly, using `C-next' (visit each in turn) or `C-mouse-2' (visit the ones you click). It is fairly quick this way to find what you were looking for. In spite of the large volume of doc searched, there are only three matches in vanilla emacs (-Q): only three functions, variables, or faces whose doc strings mention both `mail' and `mode line': `display-time', `display-time-mode', and `rmail-mode'. Why no `display-time-mail-string'? Because its doc string does not mention `mail'. That shows the weakness of such an approach: it depends on having doc that mentions what you're looking for. Nevertheless, using this approach, you would have very quickly found `display-time' and `display-time-mode', and from their doc strings you could have gotten to the appropriate Customize group and found what you needed. It would probably have taken you less than 5 minutes altogether to find what you were after, and almost all of that time would have been spent looking over the Customize group's variables to find that `display-time-mail-string' was pertinent. No, this is not a panacea. There are several user options in Customize group `display-time' that involve mail indication in the mode line, and none of their doc strings mention "mode line" (too bad). The group's doc string does mention it, but the individual options in the group do not. When this is the case, `icicle-doc' will not get you where you want to go directly, but it can still help get you close. There are also three similar commands, `icicle-fundoc', `icicle-vardoc', and `icicle-plist', for only functions, only variables, and only property lists, respectively. They let you match against either or both the function/variable name and its doc string or the symbol name and its property list keys and values. This is important because sometimes the name itself carries information that the doc string does not. In particular, a function, variable, or symbol name often indicates the operation or type of object acted upon, and that can cut down considerably on what doc is searched. http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles_-_Multi-Completions There are also Icicles versions of the standard `apropos' commands, which let you access the list of matches as completion candidates: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles_-_Help_on_Candidates#OtherApro posCommands