From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Yuri Khan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Mark_set_by_=E2=80=98mark=2D=2A=E2=80=99_not_deactivated_by_poin?= =?UTF-8?Q?t_motion?= Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:24:17 +0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537251782 27841 195.159.176.226 (18 Sep 2018 06:23:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 06:23:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 18 08:22:57 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g29PV-00076O-76 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:22:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38705 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g29Rb-0004O6-B9 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 02:25:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54316) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g29R1-0004Nl-5u for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 02:24:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g29R0-0003zE-25 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 02:24:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]:36311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g29Qz-0003yB-Ox for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 02:24:29 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id w17-v6so825649otk.3 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2018 23:24:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tHoLqrqxwWJZB/nnAydDk7lGax6G/a9sZ02B0N/SKyc=; b=bGw03s628F5WVZod80i4dOQ8zXGl8AoasDw6A78t7xlhUzJqT3+qq4353X4fZXZtbD +lplYLjBt0EtbqfhNsIEpwKjCIwOw5dhHp0Pd3/zEbWGxeqhqur+XxquUqOlniqsjguV dZ/oVmNGBNmh68UgivfMX2torlNFqfMrnFxH4gYonCMJqxJj359jph8vYV3cx69zXNaR zbskEGtjBUqo6+ObYk71XNHXmUhjKCVefrOJIIi2d7PJGqlPYGDEID+KOr4zjWgt6e71 2G1iFk/5CwbqrDMxsm4+F8eJJx/NFaXOJ8kxVThetURZ/wyTXSzqzLoC/lel7JE3pXN2 8+mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tHoLqrqxwWJZB/nnAydDk7lGax6G/a9sZ02B0N/SKyc=; b=qVRN1cTjhYMSGLFXk3U6dkdsY7gNyN37daGyIYol3v25jY/5/7oiTgyyMyk8SwfOla hiJx1RRuDhbJ5qei8B/+WZlN95LkjqlHOdSlCk+qo7v4+ljyue+T0dh5MTrJKu4o3qN5 Ji2FfBZva56TdyoQS7Qe0YwkafcJABPeOxgCyVprgcw1JHk3uUBV0Hb/MAeXG2Vw/IzY r0rTiu9a/IOPD9w4/xB07PQJm+NwGWXdulOayYqcNm5O88Bue41zVX2GI/YUFOrvbhxG bsEl9kFfxSbkjPwHCtUtPXTEPayrMHN1jYekRtl3/UI7XYoLFilqj5N4BMNLsSRA8/67 n7cQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BaUwSxzno03XacT2lnyRbgtP9HEG61ZusptTFe7t4i56OtxCRF DRgrb88zohdxr/ubkf8S4JnUpr7VVeYbQ4gkEvL/+63+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdahEDCvxz9DeAc0kdSP0WFxlNn7aZmKFwzzzOeDG/xiAgEHTN6tacayCwmuAdvLQMbDiz73mzD/kweWD1uuMKc= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4114:: with SMTP id o20-v6mr13890609ote.260.1537251868630; Mon, 17 Sep 2018 23:24:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::333 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:117949 Archived-At: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:23 AM Stefan Monnier w= rote: > > > Observed behavior: point moves as commanded, mark remains active. > > Expected behavior: point moves, mark is deactivated. > > Could you clarify what would be the benefit of the behavior you expect > (other than fitting your expectation, obviously ;-)? The benefit is not obvious at first, but I think it is a matter of UI modality. See below. > I'm more wondering about why you'd mark a word with M-@ only to > immediately afterwards deactivate the region. > > I never use M-@ but I use C-M-SPC all the time, and very often I do > C-M-SPC (maybe repeated a few times) followed by some cursor motion > (including C-x C-x sometimes) to "fine tune" the boundaries of the > active region. I actually noticed this behavior from C-M-SPC =E2=80=98mark-sexp=E2=80=99 a= nd M-h in org-mode =E2=80=98org-mark-element=E2=80=99. I never use mark-word either, = because C-S-arrows do the same thing and work in all applications. My scenario is: I press the key to mark something, but I started in the wrong place so it marked the wrong thing, so I want to move to the correct place and press it again. To fine-tune, I would probably use Shift+arrows, possibly combined with C-x C-x. But I don=E2=80=99t really do that; it=E2=80=99s easier to st= art over. > On the contrary, I find the deactivate-mark behavior of > "navigation after shifted-navigation" to be a mis-feature: it forces me > to be careful to keep the shift key pressed until I'm really done > setting up the region and it prevents me from using navigation commands > which I can't use in a shifted form (or which don't (yet) support > shift-select-mode). I don't mind very much, tho: I just use C-SPC > instead, but I think in terms of UI, navigation should never deactivate > the mark. > > I have the impression that this behavior was simply copied from other > applications, and those don't have something equivalent to Emacs's C-g, > so their users are used to making a dummy un-shifted cursor movement > when they just want to deactivate the selection. But in Emacs we have > C-g for that. You are used to modal selection. You press C-SPC and now all navigation commands mark a region. Then you press C-g or perform a region command to return to normal mode. I am used to quasi-modal selection. Navigation commands mark a region only as long as I hold down the pedal, and the region is active only as long as I haven=E2=80=99t moved away from it. This is important when delete-selection-mode is on, because a stray region can easily be deleted or replaced. Dummy or keypresses (in other applications) are a thing, yes. But most of the time the need to deactivate selection is tied with the need to move to a different place. > [ Side comment. Emacs made the opposite choice for undo: when you want > to start redoing, you need to perform some dummy non-undo command > because there's no dedicated key-binding to switch between undo > and redo. ] Yes, and that design choice leads to the same consequence of modality: C-_ behaves differently depending on what you did before. I use redo.el to have separate bindings, C-z for undo, C-S-z for redo.